This topic contains 53 replies, has 2,625 voices, and was last updated by  manillascissor 5 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #1875

    manillascissor

    Just obtained this promo. Behind the name of the person who received this, there is a number. I think it is not a randomly pressed number, but most likely it indicates how many people have received this watermarked promo. Does somebody has this already? And does your copy have a number too? And if so, what number?

    My copy has number 25.

  • #47145

    i think both name and number are unique. each number has a different audio watermark. so if this audio ever got leaked, they could have checked the watermark, and if the result was for example 25, then they could easily link it to the blacked out name. because there’s only one cd with the watermark \"25\".

    so if you really want to \"protect\" the original receiver of this promo, you should also black out the number, or one might assume he sold it on. (he or she could of course always say that they still own it, but sent scans to spfreaks.com.)

  • #47146

    Arthur
    Spectator

    Yeah, I know what you mean. In fact, it became a ‘tradition’ on SPfreaks to black out these names on watermarked copies, but I think it is not really necessary. On so many promo releases, press kits, etc. we can find names and e-mails etc. However, those names have nothing to do with being the owner of a (watermarked) release. Still I’m curious why this watermarked release not only has a name, but also a number. Anyway, the audio/video on these watermarked releases should not be leaked, that’s what matters most.

    A promo stating \"not for sale\" or \"promotional only\" is also a farce, I think. Manillascissor once posted some legal info about that. That was when one of the copies of Machina II vinyl was for sale on eBay and Billy declared in public, on Twitter, he owned the rights, if I remember well.

    Anyway again; selling these watermarked promos being the person that received them, involves a risk. What if the new owner leaks the material, and ‘they’ find out?

  • #47147

    manillascissor
    Keymaster

    nothing will happen, now, since it’s already released. costs a lot of money to sue someone over something so ridiculously inconsequential.

    what i posted before is the machina II vinyl copies that were handed out are no longer owned by anyone in the band. it was a gift sent out to whomever for whatever reasons. once it is released as such, rights to ownership of the actual vinyl belong to the current owner, not the owner at inception. if billy & co. could just reclaim all copies whenever they wanted, it’s a pretty goddamn lame release and you’d have to walk on eggshells just to own it. luckily, that is not the case. also, in the spirit of the record itself, it would be completely hypocritical to keep others from selling it. not to make a huge profit – that will happen on it’s own – but it’s their property, they can do whatever they want with it, to include destroying it. also, doesn’t it specifically request that it be bootlegged and passed around the community? what better way than to pass the actual record around (rhetorical). no one has control over what happens with those vinyls anymore, except the owners and sellers.

    the same goes with these promos. they are not the property of the record labels, as they like to claim and even print right on the releases. it’s a falsehood, has been tested in court, and they do not own the physical product anymore. rights to the music exist with whoever owns those, but the CD or whatever medium of discussion is property of the owner and can be sold, legally, to anyone. watermarked promos could potentially be useful in determining who \"leaked\" something before a release date, but as it’s three days after the release, it’s really pointless.

  • #47148

    Arthur
    Spectator

    Amen to that.

  • #47149

    Still I’m curious why this watermarked release not only has a name, but also a number.[/quote:1grcvq74]
    don’t all watermarked releases have a name and a number? some of them only have a number, but most have name and number. for example: watermarked copies of thefutureembrace or zeitgeist.
    i think the number is unique, and corresponds with a unique watermark. it’s part of the watermark system.
    i guess the name is just there to stress that the cd is linked to them personally, just in case someone would consider leaking the audio.

  • #47150

    Sven
    Spectator

    the number is for the specific audio watermark coding on this particular cd.

  • #47151

    jeroendocter
    Spectator

    I think that the number is connected to the person because I got number 21

  • #47152

    Arthur
    Spectator

    I think that the number is connected to the person because I got number 21[/quote:dp7bmsbd]
    This answers my question, thanks!

  • #47153

    :?

  • #47154

    Sven
    Spectator

    there are 25 audio watermarks for this release.
    these might be connected to a specific person, so there might just be 25 watermarked copies.
    could be way more though, with just the number indicating the version of watermark used or not even having a meaning…
    there might be a watermark, there might be numerous, there might not even be one on the actual disc; it’s more like making sure the recipient gets the idea the material has been tempered with so he/she doesn’t disclose it. if the watermark is really there you can’t teel from just looking at it (or in most case just playing the record).

  • #47155

    Arthur
    Spectator

    Thanks Sven. In fact my question will only be fully answered if we find another copy of this promo with the same number (21 or 25) but with a different name. I think it is very likely that this will happen someday, because it is hard to believe that only 25 of these promos were made in the UK.

  • #47156

    there are 25 audio watermarks for this release.[/quote:1ygbg340]
    where does this information come from?

  • #47157

    manillascissor
    Keymaster

    found the japanese promo for this release. they’re out there!

  • #47158

    alladnzane
    Spectator

    :::: JUST GET MY NUMBER 30 OF OCEANIA LIVE 3 DISCS PROMO SET ::::

  • #47159

    Sven
    Spectator

    there are 25 audio watermarks for this release.[/quote:a8yynhs2]
    where does this information come from?[/quote:a8yynhs2]

    because it’s normally like this; i’ve got numerous of these kind of promos for other bands…
    there’s a list of the numbers, matched to names… normally that is.
    so on mine it say: sven – 45 – the netherlands – name of the medium (for example)
    and on press parties i’ve signed the documents to get these promos which included lists with the full distribution list for the netherlands for example.

    so: i’d say there are 25 made for a specific list of people / journalists / djs that got one.

  • #47160

    but where did you get the number 25? i don’t understand. who says there aren’t 50 or 100 watermarked copies?

  • #47161

    manillascissor
    Keymaster

    but where did you get the number 25? i don’t understand. who says there aren’t 50 or 100 watermarked copies?[/quote:2onj5w9t]

    it’s obviously incorrect, as david has #30. how are we all missing this?

  • #47162

    i wasn’t missing that.

    but i’m still wondering where that statement came from?
    and if there are more than 25 copies, why sell \"25 watermarked copies\" as a fact? was there a reason to believe there were 25? or was this just plucked out of thin air?

  • #47163

    Sven
    Spectator

    i wasn’t missing that.

    but i’m still wondering where that statement came from?
    and if there are more than 25 copies, why sell "25 watermarked copies" as a fact? was there a reason to believe there were 25? or was this just plucked out of thin air?[/quote:1guth2dr]

    i just meant to say there are (at least) 25 copies.
    name + number on the disc…

    it’s not just a random number or something.

    jeez, sometimes I just am amazed at how many instances we need to get to the point. the initial reply said so – there might be more, there are 25 at least; we know of a number 30; fine, then there at least 30.
    jeez… you can only say how many depending on the numbers you have. so now we get to the 30’s range. ok.

    it’s only logical, but hey… oh well… jeez…

  • #47164

    hey, i know what you’re talking about. i also have problems making myself clear on here, every now and then. it even happened in this thread. frustrating, isn’t it?

  • #47165

    i’m a bit surprised that this thread even exists: don’t all the older watermarked releases (the future embrace, zeitgeist) come with a name and a unique number? it’s the same thing, isn’t it?

  • #47166

    Sven
    Spectator

    i’m a bit surprised that this thread even exists: don’t all the older watermarked releases (the future embrace, zeitgeist) come with a name and a unique number? it’s the same thing, isn’t it?[/quote:367ei7e6]

    dunno; some i have (non-TSP) are name only…

  • #47167

    interesting. all my non-sp ones (not that many) come with a number.

    so you think some of these watermarked cds don’t actually contain a watermark? and they just say the cd is watermarked to stop people from leaking the album? i really wonder if they sometimes do that. it would be cool to find a watermarked release and prove that it doesn’t contain a watermarked.

    i compared different copies of TFE and zeitgeist, and none of them were identical. (i made a perfect copy of the audio with EAC, and compared the audio.) so i believe those watermarked releases definitely contained a unique watermark.

  • #47168

    Arthur
    Spectator

    interesting. all my non-sp ones (not that many) come with a number.

    so you think some of these watermarked cds don’t actually contain a watermark? and they just say the cd is watermarked to stop people from leaking the album? i really wonder if they sometimes do that. it would be cool to find a watermarked release and prove that it doesn’t contain a watermarked.

    i compared different copies of TFE and zeitgeist, and none of them were identical. (i made a perfect copy of the audio with EAC, and compared the audio.) so i believe those watermarked releases definitely contained a unique watermark.[/quote:29be17jj]
    You compared all watermarked releases with a non-watermarked?

  • #47169

    You compared all watermarked releases with a non-watermarked?[/quote:4l931heu]

    i compared several watermarked zeitgeists and TFEs with each other. and they were all different.

    i also compared them to the commercial release, but of course that wasn’t the same either.

    i wasn’t able to "isolate" the watermark, if that’s what you’re wondering.

  • #47170

    Arthur
    Spectator

    Yeah, that’s what I figured out. But I wondered if one of the watermarked promos was the same as the commercial release. Obviously not, which means a watermark in SP land really means something.

  • #47171

    Sven
    Spectator

    interesting. all my non-sp ones (not that many) come with a number.

    so you think some of these watermarked cds don’t actually contain a watermark? and they just say the cd is watermarked to stop people from leaking the album? i really wonder if they sometimes do that. it would be cool to find a watermarked release and prove that it doesn’t contain a watermarked.

    i compared different copies of TFE and zeitgeist, and none of them were identical. (i made a perfect copy of the audio with EAC, and compared the audio.) so i believe those watermarked releases definitely contained a unique watermark.[/quote:m4hzghug]

    yes there are some without watermarks. it’s all about the idea of not getting it in your head to spread the stuff, but watermarking the material sometimes is too much work so then a caveat will work just as well…
    dunno if that’s the case for TSP though.
    and apparently not for the ones you’ve checked…

    btw: some watermarks can’t be checked in the sound file with audio software with audio software as the watermark is embedded in another way.
    did you check these with audio software?
    a watermark should not easily show up there normally – there’s specialised software to find these. if the audio in any way is different, it would seem to indicate there’s at least a different sequencing and/or master of something used. watermarks for for example The White Stripes were not detectable with audio software. same goes for NIN.

  • #47172

    i did a rip with EAC and then compared sample per sample. some samples were the same, others weren’t.

    if i compared the EAC rips of zeitgeist releases all over the world, they were all exactly the same. (this was not the case for the older albums.)

  • #47173

    the difference between the watermarked TFE and zeitgeist, and their commercial counterpart was too big to blame it on the watermark: they must’ve just used a different master. (however, neither of the watermarked promos contained pre-mastered audio. this was rumoured to be the case, but this rumour is false.)

  • #47174

    jawn till dusk
    Spectator

    #23 arrived today.

    I can’t seem to see what country these are from.

    Can anyone else?

  • #47175

    #23 arrived today.

    I can’t seem to see what country these are from.

    Can anyone else?[/quote:wkts7bsi]
    weird. #23 of "oceania: live in nyc" arrived here today.
    did you sell your copy?
    if not, what name is on your copy? the initials of the name on mine are J.K.

  • #47176

    jawn till dusk
    Spectator

    PM,dude.

  • #47177

    jawn till dusk
    Spectator

    Set adrift on memory bliss…. :D

  • #47178

    you want me to PM you, or are the initials of the name on your copy \"P. M.\"?

    so does that mean there are more copies with the same number, but with a different name? why would they do that?

  • #47179

    jawn till dusk
    Spectator

    You have a PM.(sent PM,so I didn’t disclose the persons name).

    Looks like the same person/same number.

    Is it possible in this case each person is given a number and they are possibly given ‘x’ amount of copies to distribute through different avenues?

    Only thing I can think of. (or bootleg copies,which i doubt,but may explain why there were so many of them on sale):?

  • #47180

    yeah, my first thought was \"fakes\". someone got this one watermarked promo, saw that they were selling ok on ebay, and decided to make a couple of copies.

    i did not receive a personal message from you.

  • #47181

    jess k.? right? just to make sure it’s definitely the same name. (no pm has arrived on my side.)

    that sucks, that this might be a fake. really lame.

  • #47182

    i find it hard to believe they’d fake the whole thing, including the sticker on the sleeve.

    is this by any chance the seller you bought your copy from? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191051947695 (they just put another copy up on ebay.)
    thx.

  • #47183

    manillascissor
    Keymaster

    i always sort of suspected these might be fake. :?

  • #47184

    jess k.? right? just to make sure it’s definitely the same name. (no pm has arrived on my side.)[/quote:tjeqkvfs]

    is this by any chance the seller you bought your copy from? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191051947695 (they just put another copy up on ebay.)
    thx.[/quote:tjeqkvfs]
    jawn till dusk? lemmeknow! (i can still return the item, if i hurry.)

  • #47185

    You have a PM.(sent PM,so I didn’t disclose the persons name).

    Looks like the same person/same number.[/quote:q76ge5cn]
    why are we even trying to protect this person? that’s not our responsability.

    also, this has now been released for months. it doesn’t really matter anymore, to no one. these watermarks are only used to prevent the leaking of audio before the release date.

  • #47186

    jawn till dusk
    Spectator

    Sorry just seen this.

    Same name.Just checking ebay just now.

  • #47187

    jawn till dusk
    Spectator

    Different seller,though! :?

  • #47188

    ok, thanks.

  • #47189

    manillascissor
    Keymaster

    yeah, these are bootlegs. same seller, same #23, same J.K. initials (perhaps a harry potter fan?)

    also, \"unautorised\" is not a word, anywhere. especially when used twice.

    seller also selling a fake taylor swift promo CD, for which they received a swift negative feedback.

  • #47190

    shame.

  • #47191

    Arthur
    Spectator

    My copy #25 has the name Jess Kangle. It sucks realizing this is a boot. :(

  • #47192

    manillascissor
    Keymaster

    My copy #25 has the name Jess Kangle. It sucks realizing this is a boot. :([/quote:17sgope8]

    kind of obvious this makes the shitty aeroplane UK promo a boot as well.

  • #47193

    so ALL copies of this are fake?
    or do real copies also circulate?

    and how certain are we that the (numbered?) tafh box set sampler is also fake?
    and are only the numbered copies fake, or is the general cd-r promo, that isn’t said to be watermarked, also fake?

    if we can make a proper rip (EAC) of one track of different \"watermarked\" copies (with a different number), we can easily check if there is in fact a watermark present, by comparing the audio (sample per sample, also possible in EAC).

    didn’t the tafh box set sampler show up before the tafh reissue was released?
    what about these live in nyc promos? did these show up before or after release?

  • #47194

    manillascissor
    Keymaster

    so ALL copies of this are fake?
    or do real copies also circulate?

    and how certain are we that the (numbered?) tafh box set sampler is also fake?
    and are only the numbered copies fake, or is the general cd-r promo, that isn’t said to be watermarked, also fake?

    if we can make a proper rip (EAC) of one track of different "watermarked" copies (with a different number), we can easily check if there is in fact a watermark present, by comparing the audio (sample per sample, also possible in EAC).

    didn’t the tafh box set sampler show up before the tafh reissue was released?
    what about these live in nyc promos? did these show up before or after release?[/quote:1ga85nvd]

    i personally think all copies are fake. i’m not certain on TAFH box set sampler. it has same issues: UK only (where’s the US promo?), extremly shitty art (looks like it was just ripped from the internet), and horrible packaging. plus it has the wrong rip of "marquis in spades" (i think that was the song). i mean, it’s just too much.

    i don’t know how to rip EAC files. how would one go about doing that?

    i recall the promos showing up right at the same time as the regular release. except the JP promo. it showed up a few days before, but not super long before.

  • #47195

    EAZYE121
    Spectator

    So… Can someone (not me) email the 2 people listed on the sleeve to find out if they made these promos. (Oceana Live & Aeroplane) That would probably clear it up:

    ewan@peergroupmusic.com
    gregory@peergroupmusic.com

    Their website is basic and TSP are not listed on it, but you never know, they could give us some insight.

    Also, Authorise is the correct spelling outside the USA.

  • #47196

    Also, Authorise is the correct spelling outside the USA.[/quote:xrrwlha9]
    true. but where the cds say "unauthorised", the text on the insert says "unautorised", without the "h".

  • #47197

    manillascissor
    Keymaster

    Also, Authorise is the correct spelling outside the USA.[/quote:n1y9f6j0]
    true. but where the cds say "unauthorised", the text on the insert says "unautorised", without the "h".[/quote:n1y9f6j0]

    precisely.

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