Second Pressing CD Singles

[Sickboy]

I am trying to pin down info about US/second pressing CD singles from the Gish and SD eras. I know that at least some of them were redone in ’94. They are very had to tell apart from the UK/first pressings; I think that only the matrix code is different. There may also be UK second pressings of these singles, and hopefully we can figure that out too.

For example, here is what the matrix code from the original Today UK single looks like:

HUTCD 37 :. 1:4 MASTERED BY NIMBUS IFPI 2311

But the US single looks like:

HUT00037 01# 08-22-94 SP 1-1-3 EMI JAX ifpi 163C

So, if you have any of the following singles (UK or US), especially if you bought them after mid-’94, it would be a big help if you could check them and see if your matrix number matches the matrix number here on the SPfreaks site, and if not, please post it and see if there is any difference in text on the CD or insert. Thanks everyone!

-I Am One
-Peel Sessions
-Cherub Rock
-Today
-Disarm Smile (I think SPFreaks already has correct info for this)
-Disarm Heart (this one too, but you never know)

[Cool As Ice Cream]

ah! highly interesting.

i have a couple of these: i encountered some \"identical\" singles with completely different matrix codes when comparing my US releases with the ones on spfreaks.com.
i didn’t know what to do with them at first, but i guess these all need new entries. right?

example: http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … S&item=267
i have both this one, as a copy with the matrix code \"CAROL 1465 (V) . MASTERED BY NIMBUS\" (which is obviously the original ’91 release, if i’m not mistaken not yet present on spfreaks.com.

[hbent]

Yeah, anything with a substantially different matrix number needs a separate entry. Differences like \"1:2\" vs. \"1:3\" aren’t important; those are just used to identify which copy of the master the CD was pressed from. Anything more than that is worth posting, I think.

[Arthur]

Hi hbent! Glad you found your way to our forum already, I was about to invite you here. We have been emailing around already a bit the last few days, but to discuss here on the forum works better indeed. Be welcome!

As Cool As Ice Cream already states, highly interesting questions. We know there are second and multiple pressings of many cds, and hbent already figured 1 of them out, which is Lull (mentioned and linked to by Cool As Ice Cream also). I corrected this to 1994 on SPfreaks only yesterday, for your information, based on what hbent told me in his emails.

Also hbent send in a long email about many different tour shirts and their date/era, they have been corrected on SPfreaks also. The pics you send in (and are going to send in) will be on SPfreaks, no doubt hbent! Thanks!

I’m hoping this post leads to many new uploads and even better info on existing entries on SPfreaks. Go ahead guys!

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Differences like "1:2" vs. "1:3" aren’t important; those are just used to identify which copy of the master the CD was pressed from.[/quote:lu77punl]
Yeah, I figured out that these aren’t important. I also noticed that on some spfreaks.com entries they are left out. Maybe this is because they’re not unique? Maybe we should leave this info out everywhere? Or put it in another (new) field (and split up the matrix codes in two or more fields)?

Things like "1:1:3" or sometimes a second ifpi number look like they’re engraved in the cd, instead of being somehow "inside" the cd, underneath the plastic; like they were added afterwards. Maybe this is a good way to split up the matrix code? "Real" matrix code vs. code that was added later (engraved).
Just a suggestion…

[Arthur]

Differences like "1:2" vs. "1:3" aren’t important; those are just used to identify which copy of the master the CD was pressed from.[/quote:cjs5hfut]
Yeah, I figured out that these aren’t important. I also noticed that on some spfreaks.com entries they are left out. Maybe this is because they’re not unique? Maybe we should leave this info out everywhere? Or put it in another (new) field (and split up the matrix codes in two or more fields)?

Things like "1:1:3" or sometimes a second ifpi number look like they’re engraved in the cd, instead of being somehow "inside" the cd, underneath the plastic; like they were added afterwards. Maybe this is a good way to split up the matrix code? "Real" matrix code vs. code that was added later (engraved).
Just a suggestion…[/quote:cjs5hfut]
I did like 95+ % of the uploading of the CDs myself over the past 5 years. Not all of them CDs came from my personal collection, so I can’t be sure they are all 100% correct everywhere. At least I tried to look very closely at the spines of my own CDs to figure out every little detail of the matrix codes and be as complete as possible. The only trouble I had was with logos: the Warner Brothers logo in the matrix code for example is presented as "WB" on SPfreaks.com.

That’s why I’m happy with this post of hbent to put this matrix code thingy to the test again. When any of you is doubtful about any of the codes presented on SPfreaks.com, or has new information about any entry, I’m of course willing to re-check my CDs. When any of you has a different matrix code for the same release, we should create new entries on SPfreaks.com. I had never realised that Lull was pressed at least 2 times, so I’m glad hbent notified us about it. The US versions of singles of UK origin were kinda common knowledge to the hardcore collectors, but I never chased them properly down to be honest. As my whole collection is on SPfreaks.com already (OK, except for a little pile of recent buys) I’m hoping you guys could check your collection and bring in the new info? Every different matrixcode is at least another pressing and worthwhile of uploading in a seperate entry.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Every different matrixcode is at least another pressing and worthwhile of uploading in a seperate entry.[/quote:5ppa2v8t]
In that case there’s even more to come from me.

Where will I find the time and the courage?

[Arthur]

Every different matrixcode is at least another pressing and worthwhile of uploading in a seperate entry.[/quote:19enan0y]
In that case there’s even more to come from me.

Where will I find the time and the courage? [/quote:19enan0y]

"With help of family and friends, in times of financial hardship and after 1,000’s of hours of scanning, research, frustrations and laughters, SPfreaks is the result."

Join the club?

[manillascissor]

Every different matrixcode is at least another pressing and worthwhile of uploading in a seperate entry.[/quote:3h4ysksa]
In that case there’s even more to come from me.

Where will I find the time and the courage? [/quote:3h4ysksa]

Goddamn, my sentiments EXACTLY!

[Arthur]

Every different matrixcode is at least another pressing and worthwhile of uploading in a seperate entry.[/quote:3hn99wba]
In that case there’s even more to come from me.

Where will I find the time and the courage? [/quote:3hn99wba]

Goddamn, my sentiments EXACTLY![/quote:3hn99wba]
You lazy bums.

Let’s concentrate on the second US pressings first then. Here is already some info from hbent I received by email.

"Some info is taken from Dave Asselin’s text discography.

Unfortunately I no longer have most of these CDs – I sold mine after getting real UK copies. But here is what I have been able to piece together.

I Am One – Dave Asselin says 1994.04.06. There is a scan of what I presume is this CD on the SPFreaks site, and though you can’t read the whole matrix number you can see the date, which says 09-29-94. I’m a little confused by this one; it is possible that it is a UK second pressing, especially because the CD still says "MADE IN ENGLAND" on it. The matrix number you have listed in the info (HUTCD 18 1:2 MASTERED BY NIMBUS) is correct for the original UK single. Scans of mine are forthcoming.

Peel Sessions – I am pretty sure the "non-clown version" is the second pressing, judging by the matrix code ("2-1-1"). Unfortunately I do not know if this is a real UK single or not (though it does say "MADE IN ENGLAND") and I also do not know if there is a separate US version. I also have no idea of the date, though I assume it is sometime in 1994.

Lull – as previously discussed. The date would seem to be 1994.04.14. This is a little different from the rest since there was already a US pressing.

Cherub Rock – Dave Asselin says 1994.11.07. No further info.

Today – I no longer have this CD but I did write down the matrix code before I sold it: HUT00037 01# 08-22-94 SP 1-1-3 EMI JAX ifpi 163C. Which agrees with Dave Asselin’s date of 1994.08.22.

Disarm Smile – I believe that you already have the correct info for the UK and US singles.

Disarm Heart – I don’t think there was a US version of this single.

It should not be too difficult to find people who have copies of these CDs. Most people who bought them in the US after ’94, especially if they bought them at a large chain store, will have the US versions. If there are also second pressing UK CDs (as I Am One would seem to imply) it would be nice to get info on those too."

Does any of you have US pressings of those singles we still miss on the site?

[Arthur]

I Am One – Dave Asselin says 1994.04.06. There is a scan of what I presume is this CD on the SPFreaks site, and though you can’t read the whole matrix number you can see the date, which says 09-29-94. I’m a little confused by this one; it is possible that it is a UK second pressing, especially because the CD still says "MADE IN ENGLAND" on it. The matrix number you have listed in the info (HUTCD 18 1:2 MASTERED BY NIMBUS) is correct for the original UK single. Scans of mine are forthcoming.[/quote:158prs81]

This single has just been corrected, and the scans of hbent are uploaded too. I’m getting very confused also, as we now might have 3 different versions of this single already. Let’s list them.

1. UK 1992 first pressing according to SPFC/SPfreaks
http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=COLLDETAILS&item=2064

2. UK 1994 second pressing for US market according to SPfreaks
http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=COLLDETAILS&item=4 (with ID HUT00018, dated 1994/09/29)

3. UK 1994 second pressing for US market according to Dave Asselin/SPFC
http://www.spfc.org/songs-releases/disc … iscog_id=9 (with ID HUT 2080 18 2, dated 1994/04/06)

My questions would be:
Is 2. a second UK pressing for the UK market alone, as hbent suggested? Does 3. exist at all? Hmmm…

[Arthur]

Peel Sessions – I am pretty sure the "non-clown version" is the second pressing, judging by the matrix code ("2-1-1"). Unfortunately I do not know if this is a real UK single or not (though it does say "MADE IN ENGLAND") and I also do not know if there is a separate US version. I also have no idea of the date, though I assume it is sometime in 1994.[/quote:2xnq63qi]

Agree, based on the matrix part "HUT00017" which was the type of code they used for the second pressings. I have corrected Peel Sessions (non clown) to 1994/??/??, hope you all can agree.

http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … LS&item=10

[Arthur]

Lull – as previously discussed. The date would seem to be 1994.04.14. This is a little different from the rest since there was already a US pressing.[/quote:24uqfie9]

Together with hbent’s contribution of the US first pressing we now have the following Lull pressings for the US and UK on SPfreaks:

http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … S&item=133 (UK 1991, pressed in UK)
http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … &item=2065 (US 1991 first pressing from UK)
http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … S&item=267 (US 1994 second pressing from UK)

I’m presuming they all were pressed in the UK because the matrixcode MASTERED BY NIMBUS and EMI JAX both indicate that. Do you agree?

At first I was thinking the US first pressing was a UK pressing AND UK release, as it might had something to do with changing labels in 1991 (from Caroline to Virgin) and I think I remember some CDs or vinyl needed to be repressed under the new label (Gish?) but I couldn’t find it back on such short notice. Maybe 1 of you knows what I mean… For the moment I leave it like it is now, until we know more. Agree?

[hbent]

I’m presuming they all were pressed in the UK because the matrixcode MASTERED BY NIMBUS and EMI JAX both indicate that. Do you agree?[/quote:vuw5g9t9]

Actually, according to [url:vuw5g9t9]http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?s=9cad50047d809f5877bcbb4e8e558183&p=1013969&postcount=132[/url:vuw5g9t9] EMI JAX is in Jacksonville, Florida, USA. I’m torn about Nimbus – they are definitely a UK company, but if we think that all \"MASTERED BY NIMBUS\" CDs are from the UK then we have to assume that 1st pressing US Gish ([url:vuw5g9t9]http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?page=COLLDETAILS&item=266[/url:vuw5g9t9]) was also made in England, which seems possible but unlikely. I’ll try and do some research about Caroline/Virgin/Nimbus soon.

At first I was thinking the US first pressing was a UK pressing AND UK release, as it might had something to do with changing labels in 1991 (from Caroline to Virgin) and I think I remember some CDs or vinyl needed to be repressed under the new label (Gish?) but I couldn’t find it back on such short notice. Maybe 1 of you knows what I mean… For the moment I leave it like it is now, until we know more. Agree?[/quote:vuw5g9t9]

I agree that the 1st two should be left as-is for now, but I think the US second pressing is entirely a US release.

[Arthur]

I agree that the 1st two should be left as-is for now, but I think the US second pressing is entirely a US release.[/quote:9vy12p3g]
Agree, has been corrected. Your Gish US observation is a good one also. What about the pressing plates have been ordered from Nimbus UK, shipped to US where they have been used to press Gish for the US market? Is that a likely option?

And besides Nimbus there is also EMI Swindon, I have always thought they are from UK also.

[BleedingTheOrchid]

wow you are gettin detailed here!

[hbent]

Yes, we are getting really detailed here. I definitely have too much time on my hands

[url:40evzbzi]http://www.optical-disc.com/nimbushistory.htm[/url:40evzbzi] has solved, in a rather ugly way, the Nimbus problem. Turns out Nimbus had locations in the US AND the UK, so \"MASTERED BY NIMBUS\" really can’t be counted on to give geographical information. Sigh. Though I am now tempted to think that the 1st pressing US Lull is 100% US.

BTW, EMI JAX being in the US means that the 2nd pressing I Am One single is also a 100% US release. There may be more corrections to be made based on the location of JAX but I haven’t sat down to check through them. Here’s a link for EMI SWINDON: [url:40evzbzi]http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/news/032002/08/emi.shtml[/url:40evzbzi]. Anything made there is definitely UK. EMI UDEN is NL, and I think that covers the EMI plants.

[Arthur]

Hmmm… This is starting to get VERY interesting. What comes to my mind now is that we might have to look more closely to the matrixcode as a whole to determine where it was manufactured.

I took a few examples of the CDs discussed above.

HUT00017 : 2-1-1 MASTERED BY EMI MFG IFPI L043 ifpi 1638 (Peel Sessions non-clown 1994)
HUTCD 17 : 1:2 MASTERED BY NIMBUS (Peel Sessions clown 1992)
HUT00018-01 IFPI L027 09-29-94 SP 1-2-2 EMI JAX (I Am One 1994)
HUTCD 18 . 1:2 MASTERED BY NIMBUS (I Am One 1991)
CAR01465 01# 04-14-94 SP 2-2-1 EMI JAX (Lull 1994)
HUTCD 10 :. 2:2 MASTERED BY NIMBUS (Lull 1991 UK)
CAROL 1465 (V) . MASTERED BY NIMBUS (Lull 1991 US)
CAROL 1705 (V) : MASTERED BY NIMBUS (Gish 1991 US)
CDHUT 2 . 1:3 MASTERED BY NIMBUS (Gish 1991 UK)
839663 2 . 2:4:12 EMI SWINDON IFPI 1443 (Gish 1994 UK remastered)
39663 IFP LO43 MASTERED BY EMI MFG. (Gish 1994 US remastered)
839663 2 @ 3 1-3-6-NL (Gish 1994 NL remastered)
839662 2 @ 3 1-3-3-NL (Gish 1994 IT remastered)

It looks like it should be easy to determine things now right? What I also do know is… we have to run a proper check on SPfreaks to change the Country Made In here and there…

[Cool As Ice Cream]

so this one needs to be adjusted again, right: http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … &item=2065

(country made/printed = US, instead of UK)

[Arthur]

Turns out Nimbus had locations in the US AND the UK, so "MASTERED BY NIMBUS" really can’t be counted on to give geographical information. Sigh. Though I am now tempted to think that the 1st pressing US Lull is 100% US.[/quote:3dldg05q]
hbent, where did you read that, about the Nimbus US and UK CD production plants? Maybe I’m mistaken, but the only thing I can figure out on that page you linked us to, is that Nimbus only produced CDs under the Nimbus label in the US, and their spin-off Nimbus Technology & Engineering (NTE, producing optical disc mastering equipment) is only in US and Asia. As this is not about the CD production plants itself, but about the equipment to produce CDs and DVDs (which is sold to over 70 customers worldwide) I’m thinking that a CD with a Nimbus name in the matrixcode is either only produced in the US by Nimbus itself, or by 1 of the 70+ customers worldwide that are producing CDs with a Nimbus equipment reference in the matrixcode. This last option doesn’t make much sense to me…

So I think all Smashing Pumpkins CDs with a Nimbus code are produced in the US, but maybe I’m not properly reading that info… Correct me if I’m wrong!

[Arthur]

so this one needs to be adjusted again, right: http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … &item=2065

(country made/printed = US, instead of UK)[/quote:rq1jlwlq]
Yeah, I guess so… I will do a thorough check the upcoming days on SPfreaks.com. I will start with the Smashing Pumpkins CD albums, then the CD EPs and then finally the CD singles. Every reference to UDEN or NL will be changed to Netherlands, SWINDON will be changed to UK and NIMBUS, EMI JAX and EMI MFG will be changed to US, when necessary. Maybe I’ll discover a few more unknown codes and ask/inform you about it here, deal? Oh, I’ll leave the compilation CDs for now, it’s a hell of a job already…

When I’m finished I’ll let you know here, and from then on you can virtually spank me when I made mistakes somewhere and you happen to run into them on SPfreaks.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

what makes you decide that the nimbus cds are made exclusively in the US? (or isn’t that what you are saying?)
i have a lot of nimbus cds that literally say \"made in england\".
maybe nimbus cds can be made in the US and in the UK?

[Arthur]

what makes you decide that the nimbus cds are made exclusively in the US? (or isn’t that what you are saying?)
i have a lot of nimbus cds that literally say "made in england".
maybe nimbus cds can be made in the US and in the UK?[/quote:cwiumw87]
Not decide… suggesting only. I can’t figure out in that story on http://www.optical-disc.com/nimbushistory.htm that they (Nimbus) had CD production plants in US and UK. US only, is what I read. Maybe I’m wrong…

Made/Printed in England doesn’t say too much actually. For example, check this 1994 remastered Gish, see the back artwork and compare that to the matrixcode if you like.

http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … &item=1845

That’s why I want to do a thorough check, see?

[hbent]

hbent, where did you read that, about the Nimbus US and UK CD production plants? [/quote:1i6jgv7n]

From the link above, third paragraph: \"Expansion was rapid, with additional CD manufacturing plants in Cwmbran and Virginia, USA, in 1986 and 1987.\"

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Made/Printed in England doesn’t say too much actually. For example, check this 1994 remastered Gish, see the back artwork and compare that to the matrixcode if you like.

http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … &item=1845

That’s why I want to do a thorough check, see?[/quote:1e3b4dbc]
ok, but what exactly is the "1-3-3-NL" referring to? the place where it was made or what (copy of the) master that was used?

i know you’re only suggesting, but i think if they can make cds in the netherlands and then make them say "made in italy", they could as well use a dutch master to make cds in italy.

unfortunately i don’t know much about cd pressing, masters or matrix codes or numbers that are added (such as 1-1-3), so i wouldn’t know what to choose.

[Arthur]

Ahem… right… my humble excuses, I completely missed that part, I only read USA there…

And the sentence before that even says UK… geezz… I feel silly!

Anyway, then we can safely say the UK releases were made by Nimbus in the UK, and the same story for US Nimbus releases, which have been manufactured in the US. The other way round wouldn’t make sense I guess. Agree?

[hbent]

ok, but what exactly is the "1-3-3-NL" referring to? the place where it was made or what (copy of the) master that was used?

i know you’re only suggesting, but i think if they can make cds in the netherlands and then make them say "made in italy", they could as well use a dutch master to make cds in italy.

unfortunately i don’t know much about cd pressing, masters or matrix codes or numbers that are added (such as 1-1-3), so i wouldn’t know what to choose.[/quote:3fpc1bpp]

Oh man, this is making my head hurt…

Here’s what I know about the 1-1-3 type numbers:

-The first number is the version of the main master CD that all others are made from. As I understand it there is usually only one of these, made by the mastering studio for the pressing plant to use. (Probably needs its own thread: consider that the remastered Gish is 2-x-x, and consider also that the 2nd pressing Peel Sessions is 2-x-x.)

-The second number is the version of the copy from the main master. These are the "masters" for the pressing plant. I believe there can be multiples of these that share the same number. Note that you almost never see "1-2-x," this is because they would only do a second run of these if there was a problem with the first run.

-The third number, if I understand things correctly, is some sort of identifier for the "masters" that directly create the CDs you purchase. This explains why most singles never get above 1-1-3 or so but my copy of Mellon Collie is 1-1-29. My guess is that this vaguely represents how many CDs they are making, such that all the masters at this level are being used simultaneously to press CDs. For what it’s worth, I bought a copy of Machina on the first day and it’s 1-1-1, but I got a commercial copy of Greatest Hits+Judas 0 ten days early and it’s 1-1-23.

I strongly believe that the "NL" suffix means the CD was pressed in Holland. My copies of the NL 1979, NL 1979 Mixes, and NL Tonight Tonight singles all have that suffix.

Note that a lot of this pressing info wreaks havoc on releases from smaller countries. From what I can tell, sometimes CDs are pressed at a large plant (Israeli issues seem to come from the UK), sometimes CDs are pressed locally (Argentinian issues seem to come from Argentina, or somewhere else local), and sometimes it’s really hard to tell (Canada is a big mess).

I have no idea what the requirements for saying "made in xxx country" on your CD are. Maybe it means that the CD itself was made in xxx country, or maybe it means that only the packaging (liners, cases, etc) was made in xxx country, or maybe it even means that the CD was just shrinkwrapped in xxx country. Maybe it’s different in different countries!

Did I mention that my head hurts?

[hbent]

Anyway, then we can safely say the UK releases were made by Nimbus in the UK, and the same story for US Nimbus releases, which have been manufactured in the US. The other way round wouldn’t make sense I guess. Agree?[/quote:2wybex87]

I do agree. I’m glad that things are back to being as simple as I thought they were

[Sickboy]

I’m coming from the nirvana collectors community and we have a guy there who’s obsessed with matrix codes and stuff. his site should clear up some things about how pressings are done, pressing plants and their matrix codes and so on:
http://www.crimson-ceremony.net/pr3/

If there are any further questions regarding matrices I can ask him!

[hbent]

Wow, that site is certainly impressive. The bulk of the technical information that I could see was at [url:2h136843]http://www.crimson-ceremony.net/pr3/pressingplants/index.html[/url:2h136843], which is great for anything with an IFPI number, but I have many discs that lack one. Also, I have discs with codes that are unidentified, such as L0 (?!? – appears on European and US discs) and L1 (somewhere in Japan). Still, thanks for the link Sickboy.

Hmm, and I just noticed it has lots of info about vinyl too. I haven’t even started to think about matrix codes on vinyl yet, and perhaps that’s better left for another thread and another time.

[Sickboy]

no need to thank me

yeah, he’s focused on codes that appear on nirvana discs I think and IFPI’s were introduced in the mid 90s!

[Author]

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