Siamese Dream colored vinyl; 3 pressings or more? You judge.

[Sickboy]

Second update on our scanjob yesterday. A little surprise maybe, about the Siamese Dream colored vinyl. So far we distinct 3 different pressings, roughly purpe/maroon, peach/pink/light-red and orange. This might still be right, however we put together 10 different vinyls and have them all scanned. The results are here:

http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … &item=1102 (scroll down)

You will find lots of colorvariations, unmarbled, slightly marbled and heavily marbled vinyl. Just beautiful!

But who can tell the number of pressings?

On a sidenote, my favourite is this one, a multicolored heavily marbled maroon vinyl.

[Superlordspamulon]

here’s a theory, that may or may not hold much water due to my limited knowledge of how vinyl’s are pressed, but maybe that what it says about 4 pressings is correct – however, during a pressing, they changed how they were pressing them (or colours etc.), resulting in different looking vinyls. basically, in one pressing ‘session’ they changed it halfway or something – this means that it would still be the same press, just changed.
did that make sense? does it work? i have no idea…

[Arthur]

I guess you’re right about that, it makes sense. I also wonder what distincts 1 pressing from the other. The time between them? The color? The releasenumber?

What we do know so far (correct me if I’m wrong guys, I’m no vinyl specialist myself either) is the following.

-1 matrixnumber on all colors, being \"CAROL-1740-1-A S-27899 MASTERDISK\" (and 1-B, 1-C & 1-D etc. of course)
-1 releasenumber for all of them
-3 different moments they surfaced on the market. As the maroon was first, then the peach and then the orange, it was for good reasons being assumed that those were the 3 pressings.

For the moment I cannot tell in what timeframes the 3 different colors appeared on the market, if there were weeks or months inbetween. I do hope other collectors can tell. To me it looks like they could have done it in 1 pressing also, over several days maybe, and going crazy mixing the colors in the pressing plant.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

the purple one is also my favourite.

there are a lot of colours/variations though. it’s not clear how many times these were pressed and repressed over the years. i made a thread about it some time ago on netphoria, but most pictures are no longer present in that thread, so it’s not worth linking.
in january, i also discovered a black vinyl version (not the hut uk one)! i think this is the most recent reprint of the caroline version.

and the pink vinyl (really pink, not purple, not peach) is on its way.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

here are three copies from my collection. i actually have more colours/variations, such as an orange one with more marbling (in a darker color) going on, and the black one i mentioned in the previous post.

[jgfox]

Colours make me happy!! And no, I’m not on drugs…

Here you go Arthur, my first post

[Cool As Ice Cream]

are you the same jeroen as the nspaa jeroen?

[Shannen]

Wow! Kudos! That’s a lot of hardwork

[Arthur]

Here you go Arthur, my first post [/quote:11l7ear3]
Welcome Jeroen, I’m proud of you my son!

Based on some reactions I got by email about this post, I reorganised the pics on SPfreaks from lighter colors to darker colors (good idea, thanks Sven!). I have numbered the pics in a way that makes it easy to upload extra full scans in the future, from other owners.

And to answer a question about a slideshow tool: no, it is not implemented yet, however it is on the list of things to do of RedWolf the developer.

And when I look closely to your pics Cool As Ice Cream, I notice at least 2 other color variations, marbled pink and (unmarbled?) red! When you manage to make full scans someday, it would be pretty cool to put them between the others for comparison. And that black version too of course. Pretty cool discovery that is!

[Cool As Ice Cream]

whenever they use marbling, no two lp sets will be the same. and i think the \"overall colour\" of the first vinyl will also be different of the last vinyl, because i imagine it’s a bit like paint that gets mixed, becoming more plain. (maybe the first vinyls will look peach, with a lot of marbling, and the last ones will be a bit lighter or darker, with less visible marbling.)

i don’t really know much about pressing vinyls, and i was wondering, what exactly is \"one pressing\"? (aka, what exactly are we discussing here?)
say they made the purple and the red and the peach ones all at the same time, would that be considered one pressing? or three different ones?
or, say they did one batch of purple vinyls (don’t know how many copies they can make in one batch), but ten batches of peach vinyls, because they needed a lot more of these. yet again, all at the same time. does this make 1 purple pressing, and 10 peach pressings (maybe declaring the small differences of colour between some peach vinyls)?

[Arthur]

What we are discussing is this (from SPFC.org):

\"1st press: Unknown pressing quantity on purple/maroon vinyl
2nd press: Unknown pressing quantity on peach/pink/light-red vinyl
3rd press: Unknown pressing quantity on orange vinyl.
4th press: Unknown pressing quantity on black vinyl. \"

This info is copied from Dave Asselin’s discography if I’m right. And with respect to this guy, but when I look at all the colors, I’m very doubtful about this pressing info. Let’s say, once again I’m putting older research to the test.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

i don’t think d4’s discography had 4 pressings. rather 2, or maybe 3.
the black one has been added after i posted pictures on netphoria earlier this year.
and i think the orange one has been added later too, but i’m not sure.

also, why do people call the purple vinyl maroon?
i find it really confusing. (isn’t maroon the colour of the labels?)

in this picture, how would you call each of the colours?

[Cool As Ice Cream]

so basically, you consider one colour \"one pressing\"? and now we are just wondering how many of the variations in colour belong together in one pressing?

i think the following colours are rarer than the others:
– pink (hardest to find)
– red (hard to find)
– purple (rare, but more common than the previous two)
then comes orange and peach.
and more recently they started printing the black ones, so i assume those can be considered least rare at this moment.

would it be correct to assume they printed the rare colours first?
and maybe they did 2 or more pressings of peach and orange over the years, resulting in a lot of variation in this colour range?

[Arthur]

I very much agree on your colorschemes Cool As Ice Cream. But when it was to me (besides the pressing info) I would distinct the following colors (at least!) for this release.

-yellowish peach
-peach
-light orange
-orange
-light salmon
-salmon
-pink
-light red
-red
-darker red (your red/maroonish version)
-purple
-dark purple
-black

(Almost) all of them might come in 3 versions: unmarbled, slightly marbled or heavily marbled (with 1 color or with multiple colors). Another type of distinction: see-through vinyl or non-see-through vinyl.

Just my 2 cents on this subject (while I’m no vinyl collector, ahem…).

Update, I forgot pink…

[Arthur]

so basically, you consider one colour "one pressing"?[/quote:3obvc953]
I don’t do that, SPFC does. When you read closely my posts up here, you would have read that I even assumed it’s all 1 pressing while some people performed a color frenzy over the days in the pressing plant.

[Sven]

about the pressings…

technically normally you’re able to distinguish between pressings by the matrix codes changing which happens as the moulds/matrixes wear out over time of use and new ones are made, changing the often hand written/scatched codes around the label to the new matrix id.

however – with the SD vinyls that doesn’t seem to be the case – can someone verify all colours carry the same matrix/scratch codes?

now – what DA tried to do and i think he was correct there, was distinguish between technically not different pressings as such, but different press runs. you see – SD sells out on vinyl, demand is still huge, the record is still a success so they need to press up more copies. now that’s when apart from the deep red/purple ones, the much lighter copies started to turn up; so that’s clearly a moment for a different press run, same goes for the even lighter salmon/pink/orange ones and now the black (non-HUT) Caroline press.

now within a press run colours always differ, some more, some less; i’ve seen a translucent purple copy once and that looked stunningly cool!!! but there are also near non-translucent and totally non-translucent purple copies. it all depends on how much colour was added to the basically colourless wax the vinyls are pressed with. marble scattering is the same, it’s just applied by hand, so sometimes it’s more, sometimes it’s less.

and just like with the Tristessa 7\" not cleaning the moulds when switching colours leads to scattered fragments of for example deep orange in a salmon light pink copy – or several grey Tristessa’s while they were applying the black wax.

also: it’s not uncommon to see colours change in one press run altogether. it’s pretty well documented several hardcore outfits (and i’d have to look into my collection which) use several colours and even name these on the release, because of the availibility of the colour; from the top of my head: there’s an LP naming: 1 copy on brown/orange, 2 on orange, 5 on brown swirl, 52 on green and 340 on silver transparant or something like that; these guys just took what they found and made the best out of it. for a major league act like TSP this is not a matter of trying to do something pretty cool for the fans but running out of deep orange with the press run order pressing down upon you and switching to a lighter wax or a different one to say the least.

plus: translucent vinyl or transparant vinyl doesn’t have the same density as black or solid vinyl; that’s why black or solid (virgin – not the record company!) vinyl is most likely to sound a lot better, bear in mind when pressed on high weight vinyl!!! with SD the difference isn’t that big, but i still think PI sounds rather thinnish on the yellow LP and i’d love to have and hear a black copy of it, so if someone has a spare or can trace one down, i’m in! bad example and cool to compare – Cherub Rock on 7\" when compared to the SD version sounds like shit, when compared to the 12\" version the last one eve blows the LP out of the water in terms of sound. same applies to the MACHINA LP when compared to the heavy WL 12\" of SIYL. so weight and material does matter; picture discs are also always transparant vinyl with a sheet of paper wedged in between; hence: Aenima by TOOL (on black heavy wax) sounds awesome, Lateralus (a PD) doesn’t sound too great – but then again, there are so many issues at stake when making a vinyl (for example dumping the cd master to lp or creating a totally new mastermix?! – check NIN – The Fragile comparison to the cd and i just bought the NIN Year Zero 2LP which again has a completely different mix that sounds so much better on vinyl!!!! for example: the new Arcade Fire LP is just the main cd mix on wax, cool and all and sounds great, but when you know what you’re doing like NIN clearly was and i suspect TSP was at least with MACHINA (as that LP does feature some heavy duty bass i just cannot detect on the cd – the needle of a perfectly balanced tone arm nearly jumps out on TEG!!!) and of course with the warm, >

[Sven]

> brooding monaural Adore mix for LP it does pay off to do a new mix altogether; from the top of my hat, looking at my collection i think Kraftwerk (the live box), Sonic Youth (the Daydream Nation box), QOTSA (SftD) are all prime examples of perfect vinyl mixes and perfect releases pressing wise too; now the Zwan 2LP is a disaster, not only in terms of production, but also because it features the same clipped mix as the cd whereas vinyls characteristics could have been put to great use in creating a terrifc mindblowing loud-at-any-volume mastermix; oh well – you know what i’d love to hear, not because of the awesome songs, but because of spic and span production? the BC solo album TFE released on heavy solid vinyl with a designated vinyl mastermix; now that would sound terrific i think – but that’s never gonna happen…

right – end of rant, hope this clears some things up?!

[Cool As Ice Cream]

yes, thanks.

i will check all my sd vinyls and let you know about the matrix codes. (i think they are all the same, but i’ll check again and confirm.)

did you know, by the way, that one of the 6 sides of the mcis 3lp has a different code on the unnumbered release? the difference is bigger than that too, because one of the two releases uses a lot more vinyl surface (it comes very close to the label in the center) compared to the other.

[Arthur]

i will check all my sd vinyls and let you know about the matrix codes. (i think they are all the same, but i’ll check again and confirm.)[/quote:3pztkzhm]
Jeroen, as you still have the 8 copies we scanned last Saturday, could you please do the same? Thanks.

Sven, am I correct when I state that a "different pressing" should have different matrix codes and a "different press run" is (most likely) divided by the color schemes when it comes to organizing the Siamese Dream vinyl?

In that case I would suggest the following 6 press runs for Siamese Dream (just like Cool As Ice Dream did before):

-Red
-(Dark) Purple
-Pink
-Peach
-Orange
-Black

Is this a workable categorization to you all vinyl owners? In the end I want to put this in the SPfreaks Collection as 6 different item uploads, hopefully all with good examples (scans) of this colored vinyl.

And another question to you all (presuming that first record 1 is being pressed in a certain quantity, then the moulds get changed and then record 2 is being pressed, the reason why so many colorvariations can appear in the same sleeve), does this colorvariation within the same sleeve add to the collectors value of the vinyl, or not? Take for example row 6 last 4 pics (the spine close ups of the "maroon" vinyl, from an American collector) on http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … &item=1102 ? In my humble opinion it doesn’t, but again, I’m no vinyl collector. I would probably pay a bit higher price for 2 records that have (almost) exactly the same color(-variation), but how do you deal with this matter? Just curious.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

i don’t find a siamese dream 2lp with two differently coloured vinyls (e.g. one light orange vinyl and darker orange one) more or less valuable.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

in addition to the previous comment: i do think a sd vinyl with a lot of marbling and a lot of different colours looks a lot nicer than a plainer vinyl, so i’d be willing to pay more for it.

i checked 6 siamese dreams tonight: black, peach, 2 different orange ones, red and purple.
they all have identical matrix codes inscripted in the vinyl.
all 4 sides say \"MASTERDISK\". this is not done by hand.

the other inscriptions look handwritten. they are:
disc 1, side 1: CAROL-1740-1-A S-27899
disc 1, side 2: CAROL-1740-1-B S-27900
disc 2, side 1: CAROL-1740-1-C S-27901
disc 2, side 2: CAROL-1740-1-D S-27902

the CAROL-1740-1-(A-D) is well visible, deeply engraved in the vinyl.
the S-27(899-902) is harder to see, much lighter engraved in the vinyl. you need enough light to read these codes.

[Arthur]

And even the black vinyl has the same matrix codes… It was pressed in 2006 somewhere you think huh… At that moment they still used the same moulds, funny.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

this makes me think of yet another vinyl release. something i’ve been wondering about for years, and i think this thread finally showed me the light: the re-release of gish on caroline.

the early releases were CARLP16, deleted shortly after, and followed up by the uk HUTLP2 release. if we ignore the korean release, i think these were the only two releases available for the first years. then came the remastered version, HUTLPX2.

but more recently, i think at the end of the nineties, or even early 2000s, a new version was released, on caroline. the release code of this vinyl is CAROL 1705 (0 17046 17051 2). but next to the matrix code CAR-1705-A and CAR-1705-B, the vinyl also has the codes HUTLPX-2A-1 and HUTLPX2B-1 (like that, without the – between the X and the 2; at least, that’s how it is on my copy).
i never got this: why would they put a HUT matrix code on an american release on caroline?
but now i think i understand: they used the moulds that were used for the HUTLPX-2 release for this re-release. so they copied these codes as well.

another \"anecdote\" about these gishes: apparently they stopped pressing the german CARLP16 for some reason, and started making the english HUTLP2. but some of the CARLP16 sleeves must have moved to england, where they reused them. i have a HUTLP2 copy that has a CARLP16 inner sleeve. the word \"caroline\" on the inner sleeve has been blacked out with a marker.
cool, huh?
(ok, nevermind…)

[Sven]

i will check all my sd vinyls and let you know about the matrix codes. (i think they are all the same, but i’ll check again and confirm.)[/quote:368tbsld]
Jeroen, as you still have the 8 copies we scanned last Saturday, could you please do the same? Thanks.

Sven, am I correct when I state that a "different pressing" should have different matrix codes and a "different press run" is (most likely) divided by the color schemes when it comes to organizing the Siamese Dream vinyl?

In that case I would suggest the following 6 press runs for Siamese Dream (just like Cool As Ice Dream did before):

-Red
-(Dark) Purple
-Pink
-Peach
-Orange
-Black

Is this a workable categorization to you all vinyl owners? In the end I want to put this in the SPfreaks Collection as 6 different item uploads, hopefully all with good examples (scans) of this colored vinyl.

And another question to you all (presuming that first record 1 is being pressed in a certain quantity, then the moulds get changed and then record 2 is being pressed, the reason why so many colorvariations can appear in the same sleeve), does this colorvariation within the same sleeve add to the collectors value of the vinyl, or not? Take for example row 6 last 4 pics (the spine close ups of the "maroon" vinyl, from an American collector) on http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … &item=1102 ? In my humble opinion it doesn’t, but again, I’m no vinyl collector. I would probably pay a bit higher price for 2 records that have (almost) exactly the same color(-variation), but how do you deal with this matter? Just curious.[/quote:368tbsld]

yeah well no not per se
uhm – let’s see
i’d say these were different press runs, with identical pressings (as in music wise/master wise as in not the same as the MCIS 3LP lp Cool As Ice-Cream mentioned) hence the change in colour
also: it’s factory work to press an LP
so one guy works on LP1 and the other on LP2 or not at the same time or whatever
hence – different colours
and then someone else assembles the LPs into the sleeves
and i don’t think a pressing plant has someone look for the most matching sets

[Arthur]

cool, huh? (ok, nevermind…)[/quote:34oztatf]
We do mind Cool As Ice Cream, this info is maybe small, but very worthwhile. There are a few Gish vinyls to upload still from the scanning session last weekend, I’ll try not to forget to mention this info there. Remind me when I do forget, please.

To all of you, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! for your efforts, scans, pics and info! You make the very existence of SPfreaks, and together we kick ass! Yeah!

[Arthur]

another "anecdote" about these gishes: apparently they stopped pressing the german CARLP16 for some reason, and started making the english HUTLP2. but some of the CARLP16 sleeves must have moved to england, where they reused them. i have a HUTLP2 copy that has a CARLP16 inner sleeve. the word "caroline" on the inner sleeve has been blacked out with a marker.
cool, huh?
(ok, nevermind…)[/quote:2l82zf77]
http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=COLLDETAILS&item=1890 as promised

[Cool As Ice Cream]

[Arthur]

first picture of the pink vinyl.

god. it’s glorious.[/quote:71ejp5jx]
Yup, it is indeed.

[Sickboy]

so, what do you guys think of this?
http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/viewima … 39_024.JPG

all the records were opaque so far, weren’t they?

[Cool As Ice Cream]

i think that’s just the way the picture was taken. the records are held in front of a very strong light. it looks like they’re in front of a window with a lot of sunlight coming in.

my guess is that these vinyls look just like the red ones in this picture:

[Sickboy]

But it looks very see-through to me….
But we’ll see, cause I bought it

[Cool As Ice Cream]

let us know how they look like when they arrive, ok?

[Arthur]

Let me bring this in mind:

http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … &item=1102

New colorvariations (pink! at least! and red!) are very welcome there to have something to compare.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

god, i should try to find a colour scanner big enough for 12\"s.

[Sickboy]

god, i should try to find a colour scanner big enough for 12"s.[/quote:2tnazaxv]
i looked for A3 scanners on ebay a while ago.. they’re not cheap

and yeah, i’ll post pictures when i have the records

here is my purple siamese dream, scanned with an a4 scanner, an awful lot of work!

[Arthur]

Awesome scan!

But what do you think of this red & white Siamese Dream vinyl?

http://cgi.ebay.com/SMASHING-PUMPKINS-S … 0229563053

[Sickboy]

Awesome scan![/quote:14gdpc2d]
i also have it in a higher resolution if there is need…

But what do you think of this red & white Siamese Dream vinyl?

http://cgi.ebay.com/SMASHING-PUMPKINS-S … 0229563053[/quote:14gdpc2d]
i think with "white" he’s only referencing the marbeling… I think this roughly the same as in icecream’s post above….

[Arthur]

Yeah that might be true. Would your scans suit here as another color variation Sickboy?

http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … &item=1102

If so, bring them scans in!

[Sickboy]

i’d say mine is more purple and not so maroon, but I only have scan of the first LP of the A side…. but here you go: http://sicky.i-networx.de/Pumpkins/SP_sd_sicky.jpg

[Sickboy]

A few days ago I got my new SD version

At first I was disapointed because it looked like the purple one, but then… but see for yourself:
(note: the pictures are crap, sorry, i only have the camera of my mobline phone here right now)

Picture of my whole set
(pic left: opaque purple on top, new at the bottom, right pic other way round)
<a href="http://sicky.i-networx.de/Pumpkins/SD/set1.JPG:btb8a89f][/url:btb8a89f] [url=http://sicky.i-networx.de/Pumpkins/SD/set2.JPG:btb8a89f][/url:btb8a89f”>

1st new record with some back/side light:
<a href="http://sicky.i-networx.de/Pumpkins/SD/rec1.JPG:btb8a89f][/url:btb8a89f”>

2nd new record:
(left pic: with flash and now back light, right pic: no flash but backlight)
<a href="http://sicky.i-networx.de/Pumpkins/SD/rec2_flash.JPG:btb8a89f][/url:btb8a89f] [url=http://sicky.i-networx.de/Pumpkins/SD/rec2_noflash.JPG:btb8a89f][/url:btb8a89f”>

Comparison of opaque purple with the new one with some back/side light:
(1st pic: opaque purple on the left)
<a href="http://sicky.i-networx.de/Pumpkins/SD/compare1.JPG:btb8a89f][/url:btb8a89f”>

<a href="http://sicky.i-networx.de/Pumpkins/SD/compare2.JPG:btb8a89f][/url:btb8a89f][/url”>

[Rocket Baby Dolls]

The only SD vinyl i have is sealed so i have no idea on the colour, awesome collections though. Why do the vinyls vary in colour\\shade so much?

[Sickboy]

Why do the vinyls vary in colour\\shade so much?[/quote:3f4fydnz]
Because there are 6 pressings (at least I think so):
– red/dark red
– pink
– orange/peach etc.
– purple/maroon etc.
– clear red/purple whatever one likes to call it
– black

they could have done red and pink in one "pressing session" (beginnig with red and adding white pellets later) but I really doubt it… ok, from what I know they could have done them all in one pressing except for the clear one I think…

an example when you go from pressing color vinyl to black is here:

[Author]

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