Are you religious? Do you believe in god(s)?

[BleedingTheOrchid]

Outside this board I had a pretty cool discussion with someone about this subject the last few days. It was a long time ago I talked so intense & detailed about it. But I wonder how you guys on this board think & feel about this. Please, be as respectful as usual.

My answers to the 2 questions are: No, but I do have my personal beliefs (*). No, certainly not.

(*) I used the explanation of Wikipedia to answer this question.

\"A religion is a social institution that includes a set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term \"religion\" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.\"

[Superlordspamulon]

No and no.

but if i had to be religious, i’d be pastafarian. the Flying Spaghetti Monster is, frankly, the best god out there. Flimsy moral standards, pirates are divine beings, and heaven is a beer volcano and a stripper factory! what’s not to love

visit http://www.venganza.org for more information

[Arthur]

Good one Superlordspamulon. I just love the serious and ironic comments on posts like this:

http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/21/is-this-a-joke.htm

[Superlordspamulon]

I know. it is quite brilliant

[Arthur]

Americans are brilliant. Read this. Found the link on that website.

http://www.ketv.com/news/14133442/detail.html

Anyway, in this discussion I mentioned before I reached some thoughts that might be helpful to start a discussion here.

\"Religion with external designers and silly rituals is not the way to go. Not for me at least. My truth is inside me, not outside at some god. I am my personal god, and every single person is his/her own god. Every animal is a god. Every tree, flame, stone, drip of water, gush of wind is a designer without control. Maybe that’s my belief… I don’t know…\"

And there was a pro-religious argument stating \"First, there is the ontological argument. This argument basically says that since over 98% of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, on all continents believe in the existence of God – there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.\"

I responded like this:

\"I’m not very impressed by the ontological argument. The majority of Germans allowed Hitler to kill millions of Jews and other people in the 1930’s and 1940’s. All people on earth believed the earth was flat, and we would fell off when we would sail to far to the edge. There are many other examples like this, so I rest my case for the moment, when it is about people. People can be extremely blind, following things that are not good, that’s all I want to say.\"

[Superlordspamulon]

One of my favourite little arguments against the idea of the Christian God, which i picked up elsewhere, is this:

2 of the defining aspects of God is that he is omnipotent and benevolent; without these, he is not God.
Now there is suffering in the world. If he was benevolent and omnipotent he would get rid of it. If he did not wish to get rid of it, then he is not benevolent. If he did wish to, but cannot, he is not omnipotent. As there is suffering in the world, the commonly believed Christian idea of God is therefore redundant: losing either one or the other of His defining aspects.

Benevolent mught not be the best word however… omni-benevolent or all-loving would probably be better… *muses upon this*

[manillascissor]

Good points all around. I’ve always struggled with accepting Christianity. I don’t know a whole hell of a lot about it, and won’t pretend to.

I do know that the King James version of the Bible was rejected numerous times before a version that suited the king was created. This is a huge pile of shit. Right there, you have divine word converted into interpreted word, and not even a direct translation. A translation that suited the king. And this is the main version followed by Christians today. Seems like in order to put faith into a book so subjective at this point, is very lame.

So, I used to think about evolution. Like, what is the ultimate form of life. Of energy. Only thing I could come up with is light. Not saying we will evolve into light, but light is so mysterious to me. It has particle and wave properties. It bends. It travels at 3000 m/s. Inherent within light is delay. I.E. when you look at galaxies or stars that are 100s or millions of light years away, you are looking into the past. Our interpretation of our surroundings are solely based upon light, how it’s traveling, etc. But it’s only a snapshot. Light is made up of 7 distinct colors, that are white when combined. Within those 7 colors, an infinite amount of colors are also contained within the transitions. Light is awesome. It’s all around, at all times.

Another thing I think about is heavy elements (iron, other metals) that are contained within our own bodies are only made from the death of stars (novas or supernovas). That’s it. So we are walking stars. In the most literal of senses. Think about that for a second.

Then think about the fact that you are a single entity, in your mind. However, you are made up of billions of cells, and those cells are made up of billions of elements. All these elements are different ages. You are a walking filter. Always taking in more and shedding just as much (in adulthood). So your makeup is always changing. And these elements could range in age from 1 year to 4.6 billion years. And that’s just our universe. So your fingernail could be billions of years older than the mole adjacent to it. Mind-blowing.

Which brings fractals into it. We take a microscope, we see cells, then compounds, then elements, then atoms, then electrons, protons, neutrons. Then quarks. Keeps going. Then we go the other way. We see continents, planets, solar systems, galaxies, then ultimately, the universe. Keeps going this way.

It’s anoetic. The human mind cannot begin to comprehend it’s place or purpose in this universe. In this time. We are so insignificant, it’s breathtaking.

So where does religion fit into all of this? I suppose for me, it does not really matter. I’m pretty sure I’m made up partly of a lot of dead people, animals, trees, etc. It’s like a revolving cycle. I think religion is just something we made up to deal with the ultimate fear that we have no fucking clue what is truly \"out there\".

That’s my speil. Thanks for listening. It’s all opinion, so take it for what it’s worth. Which in the grand scheme, is absolutely nothing.

[manillascissor]

And there was a pro-religious argument stating "First, there is the ontological argument. This argument basically says that since over 98% of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, on all continents believe in the existence of God – there must be something (or someone) causing this belief."

[/quote:2ofighos]

There are different types of civilizations throughout the history of the world. What’s interesting is that there is a correlation between the types of civiliations and the type of god(s) they believed in. Indians/Mayan believed in creationism. Romans had polytheism. Right? God, religion is the worst. Anyway, that 98% thing, first of all, where did that come from? Just because Akhenaten believed that Ra was the Sun God, and pushed this belief on his followers, doesn’t mean that you can say that all those people truly believed it. I bet that 98% is skewed beyond belief. Just like as many people who claim to believe in God, might be saying that for fear of reprimand or because they are too narrow-minded to question it.

I think the reason that we all believe in "something" is because we’ve all had that moment where we go, wait a minute. WTF is this? Really! WTF am I doing? WTF am I doind HERE? Right now? WTF? And that’s all you can say…so we come up with religion to explain what we cannot ever understand and also what we fear. The unknown. We explain it all away with stories and fables about the holy and spiritual. It comforts us. We are human. I think it’s part of what makes us human.

So you have contemplaters, throughout history, men with a lot of time on their hands. They think. They come up with explanations for what they are seeing everyday. For death. For birth. For rain. For conquering other countries. For killing other men. It’s all a big power struggle. You just need enough sheep to follow you around and you can shepherd the world.

[Superlordspamulon]

Good points manillascissor, but allow me to elaborate on them/correct them (depending on the points)

The editing of the bible didn’t start at King James. The bible was compiled from various texts in ancient Rome, i believe in the reign of Emperor Constantine. These texts were written originally in Hebrew, and therefore there would be some mistranslation. Also, the Romans would try to incorporate other religions into their religion when conquering new lands, in order to strengthen the Empire. It would be no great leap of logic to assume that the Bible also took a similar fate: edited to appeal to the Romans, to make it be accepted more readily. this is quite apparent when you consider that Christmas replaced what was called Saturnalia. Believe me, it was more or less the same festival. Look it up on wikipedia

Note: energy is not a tangible thing. it is merely an idea, conjured by physicists to better explain what goes on around them. And you’re right by how everything we judge is based on light Oh, and there aren’t 7 colours. there is an infinite number, Isaac Newton simply chose 7 because he liked the number. If you are going for \"definable\" levels of colours, though, technically there are 9 : ultraviolet beyond the blue on the visible spectrum, and infrared beyond the red on the visible spectrum.

Technically, the idea about us being walking stars is true. Most of the elements exist purely out of the levels of energy elements such as Helium and Hydrogen underwent during supernovas etc.

We are made up of billion cells. We are not however made up of billions of elements. there aren’t billions of elements. look at a periodic table; that details every element that has ever existed, that has been recorded (i use the past tense as some elements were made under labratory conditons and lasted for only a few nanoseconds before decomposing). And… uh… everything is the same age. All that has existed has always existed – but on a microscopic level. i.e, the level of electrons/protons/neutrons/quarks has remained constant, just in different staes. (boy i’m being pedantic)

and yeah, the depth of the universe is scary
to be that unnecessary in everything… whoa.

however, we are both wholly insignifcant and completely significant. You are one tiny spec in the whole place of existence; one atom of a grain of sand on a beach. however, you will only ever live this life from your perspective; your life is the longest thing you will ever experience. so there’s your significance

and i completely agree about what religion is. it’s a comfort blanket for the ignorant who are afraid to accept that they are completely ignorant. But we are all completely ignorant, just some are slightly less ignorant than other

except billy. who knows exactly where he is.
who knows the meaning of it all
who knows the distance to the sun
who knows the echo that is love
who knows the secrets in your spires
who knows the emptiness of youth
who knows the solitude of heart
who knows the murmurs of the soul
and who knows the silence of the world.

And except Chuck Norris.

[Superlordspamulon]

There are different types of civilizations throughout the history of the world. What’s interesting is that there is a correlation between the types of civiliations and the type of god(s) they believed in. Indians/Mayan believed in creationism. Romans had polytheism. Right? God, religion is the worst. Anyway, that 98% thing, first of all, where did that come from? Just because Akhenaten believed that Ra was the Sun God, and pushed this belief on his followers, doesn’t mean that you can say that all those people truly believed it. I bet that 98% is skewed beyond belief. Just like as many people who claim to believe in God, might be saying that for fear of reprimand or because they are too narrow-minded to question it.[/quote:s9ww6eto]

That is very true; in America, there are a significant number of people who claim to be christian, yet only do so out of peer pressure or because they think that that’s what they’re meant to do. However, more and more people are realising that it’s becoming acceptable to be a self-declared Atheist/Agnostic.
But there is still pressure: a majority of American voters said that they wouldn’t vote an Atheist into power, despite an Atheistical perspective possibly being better (less religious bias)

[Arthur]

Wow, what a cool topic this is already. Let me quote the rest to that ontological thing I mentioned before, it fits nicely now.

\"People can be extremely blind, following things that are not good, that’s all I want to say. But next to people I want to mention all living creatures on earth, that don’t do anything on religion. Well, that’s what I presume at least, because we can’t be to sure I guess. But mankind on a whole is only a little part of what lives on earth. We people have some silly instinct that makes us wonder, makes us fearful and wants us to control the fear. Here you go, the food for religion (*). We can talk, we can think, we can write. We want to be in a group, we cannot live alone. But do all billions and billions of living animals do the same? No. As I think the universe and everything inside it is one, I cannot accept that just this few people on earth know the truth by a bible, and by being religious. We only know how to use our brains for about 30%, and we only know very little about our feelings. We do not know the truth, and we have to accept it. I do accept that fact (well, I do my best anyway ), and it gives so much peace, you wouldn’t believe it! It gives so much room for this childish wonder about the amazing universe, and exploring the deepest things inside people. In this whole process I realized there is no truth, and what we like to call the truth is just something we agree on as mankind, and it changes every year, every 10 years and every 100 years.\"

(*) this referred to another part I wrote earlier on:

\"This religion stuffs is all made up by mankind long time ago. It started, I think, when mankind realised they had this little unexplainable feelings of fear. Neanderthaler times somewhere. Fear to have no food, fear to have no next day, fear to have no sunshine, fear to have no rain for the crops, etc… So they started to have rituals and prayings and things, to control the fear. When this religion thing started, also people that wanted to control other people raised and caused tons of troubles, for many many centuries. <edit> Einstein once said \"I cannot accept any concept of God based on the fear of life or the fear of death or blind faith.\". Very true those words.\"

Just think of it… When a bible-like book provides us with the ultimate truth… Then why do we need to fight bloody wars to prove we are more right then other people with another bible with another truth? No idea, but pretty stupid behaviour anyway, which is still inside this religious concept till today. And in this religious concept you can also presume the bible and things are a tool of the devil instead of a loving god. Because it makes us kill each other, it makes us fear the future. So very likely mankind will realise at some point this is not the way to go. There is no devil, there is no god. There are many things out there to explore which I cannot explain, but the concept of religion and all that comes with it, build up in centuries, is a timewaster anyway to me.

Now bring in the christians/muslims/hindoes etc. please, I want to hear the other opinions too!

[Tree_Spirit]

Outside this board I had a pretty cool discussion with someone about this subject the last few days. It was a long time ago I talked so intense & detailed about it. [/quote:1r89d9wg]

I wonder who that person was *whistles lightly*
I still need to reply to you Arthur,time so restrict me lately.
I enjoy and look forward to chats with ya .You’re one awesomely kwel non-believer..lol..Wish I could change that😛

I think anyone that knows me,knows I’m a very *Religious*person.I personally believe that the complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today. Many examples showing God’s design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth…its size is perfect. The Earth’s size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth’s surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth’s position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet it restrains our massive oceans from spilling over across the continents.

Water…colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You’ll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.

Water is also chemically inert. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth’s water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.

[Tree_Spirit]

The human brain…simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of computer mouse in your hand. Your brain registers emotional responses, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second. Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information…can we say mere chance brought about such an astounding organ?

When NASA launches a shuttle mission, it is assumed a monkey didn’t write the plan, but intelligent and knowledgeable minds. How does one explain the existence of the human brain? Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could have created the human brain.

This doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface,that things were created by a designer.If you actually sit and think about how complex we are as human beings .We are to unique just happen randomly and so is are universe.

[Arthur]

You’re one awesomely kwel non-believer..lol..Wish I could change that:P[/quote:2v6yl9sq]
You can change the awesome part (really, I do have a very nasty side), however you cannot change the non-believer part. I believe in non-believing, it controls (and at the same time opens up) the beauty, the chaos and the inner moral for me.

Glad you found your way here also Tree_Spirit! After an almost-pastafarian and an agnost we got the christian point of view also.

PS Tree_Spirit, your texts have partly disappeared, this board has some maximum lenght… Don’t know why… Use the "Preview" button to check before you post. Or the "Edit" button to correct later. Post shorter pieces in multiple posts. (And I just noticed you found your way in that )

[Arthur]

Question to Tree_Spirit:

Can your almighty creator create a stone he cannot lift?

Think of it… No christian ever could answer this question to me so far.

[Pipoka]

I believe in God. My mother is very religious and i had a christian education.

I’m not a \"religious\" person, if we are talking about going to church and participate on those \"rituals\" related with religion. I had that experiences in my life, they were very important to me at that time, but i don’t find them important to me in this time of my life.

But i strongly desagree when Super says

and i completely agree about what religion is. it’s a comfort blanket for the ignorant who are afraid to accept that they are completely ignorant. But we are all completely ignorant, just some are slightly less ignorant than other

Of course that we are talking about masses, and there are exceptions, but i don’t think that religious people are afraid to accept ignorance. We are all ingnorant, being religious or not. Many of the religious people that i know are very counscious about that ignorance and believing in God, is not a way to feel less or more ignorant than those who don’t believe.

I just respect both who believe and don’t believe, but i do not understand why both sides tend to criticize the other.
Being religious, to me, is not negative, if you use your own brain to question things, and not acept by truth what other tell you. If it helps you in your life, If it makes you feel good about yourself, why not being religious?

For me it is a very simple thing. Those who believe can be happy with that, and those who don’t believe are happy without it, and that’s it. But no one is more clarified than the other, or less ignorant, or whatever, for being (or not) religious.

Working in health give a lot of experiences with people, and i can tell you that, most of the times, when people get very sick, those who claimed to be agnostic start to feel different about faith and god, and sometimes at the end they say that they believe in god now, or even became religious people. Just like the oposite it is true also.

(A little break for recieving the man that came here to fix my modem, broke up my thought… so, i’m not inspired anymore! i guess i will post again if someone replies my comment )

[Tree_Spirit]

Question to Tree_Spirit:

Can your almighty creator create a stone he cannot lift?

Think of it… No christian ever could answer this question to me so far.[/quote:1efzd2me]

Thats a paradox, not a real theological problem.But I’ll address it to what i can.
Let me ask you this then.Stop and think about how illogical that question is.Then I’ll ask you my question.Now we are looking at GOD as real now so to speak.And I’ve seen this question ask so many times.So many debates over it also.This question ,is one that is used in certain circles to try to discredit God’s"power"and trying to place a limitation onto God’s power.We all as believer’s know, God has only one limitation that he cannot lie or do evil.

Can God make two plus two equal six?

This is a question which is frequently asked by skeptics and by children. We reply by asking how much power it would take to bring about this result. The absurdity of the question is not too difficult to see. Would the power of a ton of dynamite make two plus two equal six? Or the power of an atom bomb? Or of a hydrogen bomb? When these questions are asked it is readily seen that the truth of the multiplication tables is not in the realm of power. Power has nothing to do with it. When we assert that God is omnipotent, we are talking about power. In the discussion of the infinite, eternal, and unchangeable truth of God we shall show that truth is of the very essence of His character but not in the realm of power; and we shall consider those Scriptures which plainly declare that ‘it is impossible for God to lie’ (Heb. 6:18)

Most of the "paradoxes" commit this same basic error. Even those that seem to deal with "power" such as "Can God create an immovable stone" are actually asking if God can bring about a logically contradictory state of affairs. The answer is no, but it does not show that God does not have infinite power or that God cannot do with power anything that power can do. Power cannot bring into being a contradictory state of affairs.

God is omnipotent and omniscient. You can’t get much more powerful than that. God’s power is therefore absolute.God can decide to do anything. God can then change His mind and undo it all so that He never did it in the first place. God can tell the truth.Since God’s power is absolute, his power isn’t even limited by Time, Probability, or Logic, because it all flows from Him in the first place. He is indeed the alpha and the omega; everything between and everything beyond.

Thanks for debate as always!
stay kwel!

[Cool As Ice Cream]

I don’t believe in anything.

[manillascissor]

If you are going for "definable" levels of colours, though, technically there are 9 : ultraviolet beyond the blue on the visible spectrum, and infrared beyond the red on the visible spectrum.

[/quote:j8o8qw5a]

Yes, seeing as how these are not inside the visible spectrum, I decided to eliminate them from the competition. That’s like saying microwaves are next on one side, then gamma. I was referring to the visible spectrum only.

[manillascissor]

We are made up of billion cells. We are not however made up of billions of elements. there aren’t billions of elements. look at a periodic table; that details every element that has ever existed, that has been recorded (i use the past tense as some elements were made under labratory conditons and lasted for only a few nanoseconds before decomposing). And… uh… everything is the same age. All that has existed has always existed – but on a microscopic level. i.e, the level of electrons/protons/neutrons/quarks has remained constant, just in different staes. (boy i’m being pedantic)

[/quote:2sx8oxbf]

Ok, yes, again, I see what you’re saying, but we are indeed made up of billions of elements when you consider the possibitlity, rather, necessity that you are allowed to use one or more of the same element. I.E. 2 Hydrogens, 3 Heliums, 147,322 Irons, etc. Billions upon billions.

All that has existed has always existed. Now you sound religious. Such an absolute!!!

Anyway, I disagree when you consider that mass can turn into energy, and vice versa. I know you think energy is intangible, however, when those hydrogens and heliums turn into heavy metal machines, a certain part of the reaction is converted into heat. I’m sure another portion may be converted into light, otherwise, you wouldn’t see supernovas. Anyway, I’m no expert on these things, but when you consider the ins and outs of these two universals, mass and energy, things are created and destroyed. Or rather, converted from one to the other.

Essentially, what I’m saying is that all elements are not the same age. They are born, converted, or converted, then born.

Which brings us to our next topic: Entropy. Would anyone like to get this started?

[manillascissor]

That is very true; in America, there are a significant number of people who claim to be christian, yet only do so out of peer pressure or because they think that that’s what they’re meant to do. However, more and more people are realising that it’s becoming acceptable to be a self-declared Atheist/Agnostic.
But there is still pressure: a majority of American voters said that they wouldn’t vote an Atheist into power, despite an Atheistical perspective possibly being better (less religious bias)[/quote:43ret7qs]

This is not really a shock. What this means to me, again, just to me, is that atheists/agnostics are probably comfortable voting in a religious follower to lead their country rather than one of their own. Why? Because they are smart enough not to rock the boat. Again, if 98% believe, fuck it, let em.

[manillascissor]

I don’t believe in anything.[/quote:39b55qw3]

If you don’t fall for anything, you’ll stand for something.

*Please, someone get this……..please.

[manillascissor]

Now bring in the christians/muslims/hindoes etc. please, I want to hear the other opinions too![/quote:1ylcrwu3]

Agree. Thank you Tree Spirit.

[manillascissor]

Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

[/quote:2mnr2zav]

Two things: you say yourself here, only known planet. Which acquiescently acknowledges that another may exist. Or rather, does exist. As you have shown, the complexity is amazing. But also amazing are the odds that it could happen by chance alone when you think of how many stars and how many galaxies are out there. I know it seems like a design, and you may be right about that. But saying all of this cannot happen by chance, just because it’s too perfect, I don’t see the logic. Think about how many examples there are of it not working. Like you say, we, humans, humans in this timeframe of 2007, which is a made up reference point, but a reference point nonetheless, don’t know of any other examples of life outside of our own little solar system. When you think about the possibility though, that it could happen elsewhere, even if not human, that life could exist. I mean, it’s astounding. And can go the other way too. Maybe you’re right. Maybe our designer is a complete moron. And he/she got it really really really wrong A LOT of…..

A LOT

of times. Like a 6th grader with a 1 average at mid-term. That’s almost just as unlikely. But possible. They key word is possible.

I guess I’ll use the old comparison, if you put enough monkeys in a room for a long enough time, they will eventually write the Bible. Eh, I’ve never QUITE believed this, but, maybe when dealing with true infinity, it’s possible? Not sure.

Also, do you separate animals and humans into two categories on purpose, and if so, why?

[manillascissor]

Question to Tree_Spirit:

Can your almighty creator create a stone he cannot lift?

Think of it… No christian ever could answer this question to me so far.[/quote:26w0synz]

All right, scientist Arthur. Put your chemical faceguard on…

What happens when an unstoppable object comes into contact with an immoveable object?

[manillascissor]

I just respect both who believe and don’t believe, but i do not understand why both sides tend to criticize the other. [/quote:13c5egte]

I do see it as two opposites, hence the critique. It’s not as though both can exist. Either there is a God, or there isn’t. Yes, the individual is allowed (in free society, let’s all take a moment to appreciate that…) to choose for himself. However, he/she is choosing a side. And one of the sides is right. And one of the sides is wrong. That’s why people fight over it. You have to defend why you choose which side you do. You are either embracing a God, or you are not. That’s a big choice.

Working in health give a lot of experiences with people, and i can tell you that, most of the times, when people get very sick, those who claimed to be agnostic start to feel different about faith and god, and sometimes at the end they say that they believe in god now, or even became religious people. Just like the oposite it is true also.[/quote:13c5egte]

Fear.

[Arthur]

I do see it as two opposites, hence the critique. It’s not as though both can exist. Either there is a God, or there isn’t. Yes, the individual is allowed (in free society, let’s all take a moment to appreciate that…) to choose for himself. However, he/she is choosing a side. And one of the sides is right. And one of the sides is wrong. That’s why people fight over it. You have to defend why you choose which side you do. You are either embracing a God, or you are not. That’s a big choice.[/quote:2q6sd1h4]
Wrong. I debate, but I do not fight. I will not kill for (non-) religion. I will kill when they harm my wife and little children, but I do not fight for "systems" whatever color, taste, leader. Not as long as I’m to my senses. And just think of this… Why aren’t both sides wrong when we know we only use 30% of our brains, and know just little about our feelings and instincts? Why aren’t both sides blind?

Fear.[/quote:2q6sd1h4]
Just my idea. The whole religious concept is grounded from and based on fear mostly. I refuse to let fear control my life and become religious. I do have fears, but no urge to call the gods to help me. I learned to call my friends by phone, they have been more useful so far. And believe me, I’ve been in a few situations myself. Life is way more than fear alone. Life is way more than gods alone. I have always wondered why religious people cannot see that.

Thats a paradox, not a real theological problem.[/quote:2q6sd1h4]
Cool, this is the only answer you could give. And you gave it rightaway in your first sentence. To my opinion, it’s 1 of the most troublesome theological problems religion ever faced. When religious people talk about their gods, their almighty behaviour, their ultimate truth and everything, they always forget 1 thing. Their gods don’t control the paradoxes. The gods didn’t teach us people how to handle the paradoxes. We are troubled by paradoxes. So, the gods are not almighty, and they don’t have the ultimate truth. We made them up, and gave our control to them… I’m not buying it. We mankind are responsible for ourselves, we are our own judge. The bible and koran and all are pretty cool history books with some guidelines made by mankind, but no ultimate truth. There are no answers to paradoxes inside these books.

Can God make two plus two equal six?[/quote:2q6sd1h4]
This is another type of question. Mankind agreed on two plus two equals four. Mankind can also decide to call it six, when for some reason that is more convenient. Let’s say we play god ourselves.

[Anonymous]

—

[BleedingTheOrchid]

I’m not a "religious" person, if we are talking about going to church and participate on those "rituals" related with religion. I had that experiences in my life, they were very important to me at that time, but i don’t find them important to me in this time of my life.[/quote:2bplqnob]
yeah i have same. i was raised protestant but its not that important anymore and im like neutral about it. there was this time i critizised a lots on de church because God was not friendly in my opinion. i looked for quote and found a good one why i was not into this God anymore.

(He kills all the first-born of Egypt, mainly for something that he himself makes a pharaoh do (Exo 7:13 and Exo 13:15). He seems to endorse slavery (Lev 25:44-46), rape (2 Sam 12:11), murder (Lev 20:9) and the slaughtering of those who aren’t a part of his chosen people (Deu 2:21). He makes bears rip apart 42 children, simply because they mocked a prophet (2 Kin 2:24). One could go on for a very long time just listing the atrocities that the god of the Bible has committed or endorsed, and it boggles the mind that anyone would want to worship him.)

see… thats what i mean… but i dont mind people believing or not. i once was aggressive guy but losing it i didnt want to pray anymore. silly story i guess

[Superlordspamulon]

yeah i have same. i was raised protestant but its not that important anymore and im like neutral about it. there was this time i critizised a lots on de church because God was not friendly in my opinion. i looked for quote and found a good one why i was not into this God anymore.

(He kills all the first-born of Egypt, mainly for something that he himself makes a pharaoh do (Exo 7:13 and Exo 13:15). He seems to endorse slavery (Lev 25:44-46), rape (2 Sam 12:11), murder (Lev 20:9) and the slaughtering of those who aren’t a part of his chosen people (Deu 2:21). He makes bears rip apart 42 children, simply because they mocked a prophet (2 Kin 2:24). One could go on for a very long time just listing the atrocities that the god of the Bible has committed or endorsed, and it boggles the mind that anyone would want to worship him.)

see… thats what i mean… but i dont mind people believing or not. i once was aggressive guy but losing it i didnt want to pray anymore. silly story i guess[/quote:2qbordw2]

number of numbered killings by god in the bible:

2,270,365+ (this is excluding things like the flood, plagues, and various other mass destrucction thingys)

number of numbered killings by satan in the bible

10

including un-numbered killings (flood, plagues etc.)
god: 32.9 million

satan: 10

hmmm…

[Arthur]

Wow, I’m astonished, actually I’m shocked! I didn’t know this! I mean I knew most gods don’t have much sense of humour, but this is… devilish. Superlordspamulon, did you count them all, page by page?

Tonight another thing crossed my mind, maybe a good argument in this debate also. About 15 years ago I was into youth politics, and I was very much against mixing politics/government and religion. When I was reading about those subjects there was this American Organization that had the same goal, called Freedom From Religion Foundation. They now have a website, and I found back what I read about then, it’s actually on their homepage.

\"The history of Western civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion. In modern times the first to speak out for prison reform, for humane treatment of the mentally ill, for abolition of capital punishment, for women’s right to vote, for death with dignity for the terminally ill, and for the right to choose contraception, sterilization and abortion have been freethinkers, just as they were the first to call for an end to slavery. The Foundation works as an umbrella for those who are free from religion and are committed to the cherished principle of separation of state and church.\"

Especially the parts about the end of slavery, the right to choose abortion, women’s right to vote and having the right to choose for a death with dignity for the terminally ill attracted me very much. It all came from freethinkers… And they had hard times convincing the religious establishment. It’s a shame…

[manillascissor]

number of numbered killings by god in the bible:

2,270,365+

number of numbered killings by satan in the bible

10

number of un-numbered killings

god: 32.9 million

satan: 10[/quote:1iookwwl]

Having God in your corner? Priceless…

[toad32r]

This is kind of a strange topic for me… throughout my life, i have been through phases of belief, and also of non-belief. I have seen things like when my Grandmother passed away, and i saw the color come back to her pale face…i saw the look of agony change into a bright smile…i saw an end to misery. I have always had a feeling of \" God is something to look forward to at the end, a comfrting thought to help ease the trasfer from life to death, Nothing more.\" We all live(be it Christian, Athiest, Black, White, Orange, or Blue) in a world where ppl need structure, somewhere to belong, a club of shared feeling and similarity. Some ppl truly feel for what joins them together, others only believe in what they are told to believe in. That is where the problem lies. I have a friend that is a Pastor here in Toledo, and i ask him off the wall questions sometimes to hear the answer he gives ( not to disprove him or be rude, just to dig deeper into his thoughts of what it meens to be \"Christian or religious\"). Some answers he gives, and stands by, are my reasons why i dont fully find myself religious.

1) If you dont go to church, your not truly religious, and God doesn’t either. But if you go and drop a $20 bill in the pot at church, your saved????

2) My brother-in-law works his ass to the bone, has kids to take care of, goes to church ALL THE TIME, and is asked to give a percentage of his earnings to the church, as well as his free time???

3) If someone has a dream about another person sexually, you should awake youyr spouse from sleep, and tell her/him, and ask for forgiveness??? (thats not a fight waiting to happen!!!)

I want to know one thing, when is the last time God asked you for money?

I have so many other thoughts here, but i will save them til later… Im torn here!!

[manillascissor]

Wrong. I debate, but I do not fight. I will not kill for (non-) religion. I will kill when they harm my wife and little children, but I do not fight for "systems" whatever color, taste, leader. Not as long as I’m to my senses. And just think of this… Why aren’t both sides wrong when we know we only use 30% of our brains, and know just little about our feelings and instincts? Why aren’t both sides blind?[/quote:l7hhdvlf]

I guess what I’m trying to say is, either

A) God exists or
B) God does not exist

There are two options. Both sides can be misguided or "blind". The people who swear God exists may be right, but worshipping the wrong God, in the wrong fashion, at the wrong time. The people who swear God does not exist may also be right, but maybe there is a higher "power", maybe the 30% issue prevents us from knowing, maybe we all just die and that’s it.

But the bottom line is, there either is or isn’t a God. Right now. (Bearing in mind the possibility that maybe God once existed but does not anymore, has yet to exist but will in the future). Wow, I’m blowing my own mind.

[Tree_Spirit]

I’LL ASK THIS BEFORE YOU ALL,please read post in full before answering?:)
\"What evidence is required\" or\"What do YOU REQUIRE to believe?\"I would like to start there first. And really see that people want actually look at evidence from past historical proof.Plus,I fine quiet interesting,also to see the answers to the questions, at hand put before you.

If you require that God appear before you and speak in an audible voice would that then be sufficient? Perhaps take a Polaroid at Cracker Barrel with Biscuit Ben holding a can of Black Cherry Shasta Cola replete with autograph for the family scrapbook? If God (ANY god for that matter) did make himself known to you in personal appearance would you wholeheartedly believe never to question again?

Honestly, the so-called \"celebrity\" showing of God Almighty is really quite rare. Like with any celebrity their showing to everyone is rare.I’ve personality never meet BillY Corgan:P If GOD did make an empirical display to you, would you then require a physical examination since schizophrenics are well known for audible, visual and tactile hallucinations? Would you expect others to believe it? Or perhaps expect God to make Himself known to all doubters currently living? The question that is at hand is \"HOW WOULD YOU KNOW without a reasonable doubt?\" Speaking of the God of the bible, Is it reasonable to expect Him to make a once in a life time appearance to YOU personally?Not even living celebrities of today,do that. What about all the other doubters?

Is your request REASONABLE is also the question at hand.Because when answering or asking any questions about GOD,you have to look at the Nature of God and how he also goes about things in general and be logical in it.

Is there evidence of past historical events that seem to often go unquestioned yet for which you were not present? Of Course. Do you question the existence of George Washington though you cannot KNOW him? Even outside the Bible there are accounts for Jesus. Well even if you think this is an over-simplistic answer, so to for George Washington. George Washinton’s signature exists, but do you KNOW that it is his signature? No, you don’t KNOW. You TRUST the evidence you have been given and the words of others that have TOLD you it is authentic. And that is sufficient proof for you is it not?

Even now I can hear some of the responses….\"if one were to accomadate your stipulation one would have to throw out every historical document known and may as well put forth the theory that Mickey Mouse created the Universe using his magic wand two thousand years ago.\" And you would be correct. My postulate would require every historical document known to be dismissed. My point is to offer that if you are to require certain empirical evidence as proof for one event, then you must assume the same criterion for all events in question. Again, you MUST be intellectual honest and hold the same standard of proof for God’s existence, the Bible etc…that you do for ALL the proofs you may seek in the context of historical evidences. Are you willing to do that?

Also keep in mind that NO single being (except God) can know ALL evidence. Just because YOU do not see convincing evidence it is still possible that evidence exists that proves God’s existence, or at least supports His existence. Because you cannot know ALL evidence pro or con, we can say that it is at least POSSIBLE that God exists can we not?

Conversely, it is possible that there is no evidence at all for God. BUT! This cannot be stated absolutely, since all evidence would need to be known to show there is no evidence. Therefore, since any one person cannot know ALL evidence, it is possible that evidence exists that supports God’s existence. That is logical isn’t it?

[Tree_Spirit]

So the question remains: What kind of evidence is acceptable to YOU who seek empirical evidence? If you have not decided what evidence would be sufficient and reasonable, then you CANNOT state that there is no evidence for God. If you have decided what evidence is sufficient, what is it? Does Christianity fit within that criterion? If not, why not?

Again, before you answer, think about your criteria. IS IT REASONABLE? Does your criteria put a requirement upon God that is not realistic? Another example: Do you want Him to appear before you in blaze of Glory? Even if that did happen, would you believe He existed or would you consider it a hallucination of some sort or a trick played on you? Not unlike Scrooge who blamed seeing Jacob Marleys ghost on “A bit of undigested beef”. Once more I ask you…HOW WOULD YOU KNOW???

Objectivity is difficult for most people. If you have a presupposition that God does not exist or that the miraculous cannot occur, can you or would you objectively examine the evidence that is presented? If you cannot objectively examine the evidence, the presuppositions you hold regarding the miraculous may (most likely would) prevent you from recognizing evidence for God’s existence.

These are tough questions for those whose presuppostions do not allow for intellectual honesty. However, if one is truly going to define the search for Truth honestly, these questions MUST be addressed objectively.

As always, thank you all for the respectful debating!! The question of empirical evidence is an honest one. I only pray those who seek it are honest with themselves when seeking it.

[Tree_Spirit]

All right, scientist Arthur. Put your chemical faceguard on…

What happens when an unstoppable object comes into contact with an immoveable object?[/quote:b7im7mrd]

I think to Newton’s 3 laws of motion on this.This again is not a scientific logical question.Nothing .comes into mind on this planet is unmovable, but the air we breath.Even tho we can bottle oxygen and move it from place to place.But as far as being able to move it no.It is in the same area as a paradox.

I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

II. The relationship between an object’s mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector.

III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

[Tree_Spirit]

we know we only use 30% of our brains[/quote:1hbz9n9h]

I have to agree with this quote in general, when comes to paradoxes or unanswered question.Mankind does not have the power of a omniscient GOD ,that is a all knowing GOD.Somethings are not in our ream of our understanding. Because we are not all knowing beings,we only use 30% of our brains..Man has tried over and over,to present him self as a omniscient being.But only to his own selfish ego.Only God himself has answer to the unanswered we do not have the wisdom or knowledge that God has.To be able to do so.

God is all-knowing (omniscient)
God is all-powerful (omnipotent)
Gods is good.

[Arthur]

Just because YOU do not see convincing evidence it is still possible that evidence exists that proves God’s existence, or at least supports His existence. Because you cannot know ALL evidence pro or con, we can say that it is at least POSSIBLE that God exists can we not?[/quote:3b9b5v9i]
You’re absolutely right Tree_Spirit. We can say that. For the same reason we can say His Noodliness Flying Spaghetti Monster exists, and we have to worship this creature. While I see the irony in the spaghetti religion, most other religions have gone beyond irony, and spilled quite some blood fighting each other.

Let me summarize a few things form this board for you Tree_Spirit. You never responded to that.

"Just my idea. The whole religious concept is grounded from and based on fear mostly. I refuse to let fear control my life and become religious. I do have fears, but no urge to call the gods to help me. I learned to call my friends by phone, they have been more useful so far. And believe me, I’ve been in a few situations myself. Life is way more than fear alone. Life is way more than gods alone. I have always wondered why religious people cannot see that."

"Tree_Spirit wrote:
Thats a paradox, not a real theological problem.

To my opinion, it’s 1 of the most troublesome theological problems religion ever faced. When religious people talk about their gods, their almighty behaviour, their ultimate truth and everything, they always forget 1 thing. Their gods don’t control the paradoxes. The gods didn’t teach us people how to handle the paradoxes. We are troubled by paradoxes. So, the gods are not almighty, and they don’t have the ultimate truth. We made them up, and gave our control to them… I’m not buying it. We mankind are responsible for ourselves, we are our own judge. The bible and koran and all are pretty cool history books with some guidelines made by mankind, but no ultimate truth. There are no answers to paradoxes inside these books."

"He kills all the first-born of Egypt, mainly for something that he himself makes a pharaoh do (Exo 7:13 and Exo 13:15). He seems to endorse slavery (Lev 25:44-46), rape (2 Sam 12:11), murder (Lev 20:9) and the slaughtering of those who aren’t a part of his chosen people (Deu 2:21). He makes bears rip apart 42 children, simply because they mocked a prophet (2 Kin 2:24). One could go on for a very long time just listing the atrocities that the god of the Bible has committed or endorsed, and it boggles the mind that anyone would want to worship him."

"killings in the bible
by god: 32.9 million
by satan: 10"

"The history of Western civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion. In modern times the first to speak out for prison reform, for humane treatment of the mentally ill, for abolition of capital punishment, for women’s right to vote, for death with dignity for the terminally ill, and for the right to choose contraception, sterilization and abortion have been freethinkers, just as they were the first to call for an end to slavery."

Tree_Spirit, could you respond to those subjects?

-religion = solely based on fear
-there is no ultimate truth & no almighty being as long as paradoxes exist
-religion = war, rape, slavery & murder on an extreme scale
-freethinkers make the earth move, not the religious leaders

I’m very curious what you think of these things.

[lilkitn]

Wow, this is turning out to be a great debate, and with no fighting… I’m loving this! I’ve dabbled in all sorts of religions, trying to find my place in the world… never really figuring out what to believe, sometimes I do feel a bit lost. I find myself really interested in Christianity, but never quite convinced. I love your arguements TreeSpirit about evidence… quite compelling. But what I find most impressive is how both sides have agreed to disagree and are peacefully debating their sides. My hat is off to you guys! I think the world leaders could learn so much from this type of discussion. Perhaps then there would finally be peace.

[Superlordspamulon]

I guess what I’m trying to say is, either

A) God exists or
B) God does not exist

There are two options.[/quote:5t2jkfum]

This is somewhat inaccurate to say.
If we accept that by saying God, you mean christian God, then it is innacurate. If you meant that ANYTHING that is believed in could exist that would be more accurate, but you haven’t really made it clear

You could say that
A) A higher power(s) exists.
B) There are no higher powers
and take these as the options available. However, you would then need to specify A) down a lot. For instance, which higher power exists? The Christian god? the Jewish god? (which is essentially the same as the christian god) The Sikh gods? The ancient Egyptian gods? FSM? The Invisible Pink unicorn?

It is this aspect of beliefs that i find quite interesting, especially considering how quite a lot of believers of a religion will generally say that their beliefs are correct; their god exists.

If we take the vast spectrum of gods that have ever been believed, we can see that it is too hard to simply state that one exists but no other. If there were a regular pattern in the god/s believed (i.e: a lot of religions where they were centered in very distant places from each other and had had no contact but still believed in esentially the same god/s) then we could see that there is something there that shows this wasn’t a fluke, providing a standpoint for reasoned thought; "how can all these different religions believe in essentially the same thing yet have no contact to each other?"
And the thing is, we are actually able to view this in history; off the top of my head, Zeus, Jupiter and Thor all bear a resemblance to one another.

i think im rambling now

bleh. i’ll ask a question. Why is is that you believe YOUR god exists but no other higher power exists? (to the religious people) (and this is not asking prove a higher power; it is asking prove your god and disprove all others)

[Arthur]

i think im rambling now [/quote:2z1zrmw8]
To me you make perfect sense, and you come up with a pretty good point actually. Why wouldn’t Ra-Horakhty, the Egyptian sun-god (way older god and way longer cult in existence as the christian cult), be the perfect god of all? Why isn’t Allah? Why isn’t… Fill it in yourself. Well, you know my answer already I guess; because there are so many local gods on earth, it can only be a manmade thing. Why would an almighty god, if it exists, with only 1 truth, cause so much confusion, and allow so many fellow-gods to exist? Why does it allow us to kill each other in it’s many names? It makes no sense… OK, it only makes sense to me when I think "Genesis 1:27 should read: We created god in Our own image, in the image of Us We created him."

Anyway, because I happen to be born in a Western country, I should be christian. But I’m too much of a cosmopolitan (at least in my mind) to choose 1 of them gods… So I choose none, also for this reason. The other reason was pretty well-put by Einstein: "I cannot accept any concept of God based on the fear of life or the fear of death or blind faith."

Some support for my moral judgements in life I also take from Einstein: "A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

OK, OK, I’m derailing… This subject is just too cool.

Psssst lilkitn…

Wow, this is turning out to be a great debate, and with no fighting… I’m loving this! <edit> But what I find most impressive is how both sides have agreed to disagree and are peacefully debating their sides. My hat is off to you guys! I think the world leaders could learn so much from this type of discussion. Perhaps then there would finally be peace.[/quote:2z1zrmw8]
Thank you. This is a BIG compliment. You know… Religion divides, but Billy binds.

[Superlordspamulon]

Religion divides, but Billy binds. [/quote:2isoh240]

Speaking of Billy, i would like to hear his thoughts in this debate. Being a man of the world and all, he’d have a pretty interesting view in my opinion, and from what i’ve heard of his beliefs, they are quite strange and quite interesting.

Also, different point, i think where you are raised will strongly affect your beliefs. Some countries make it almost manadatory that you are religious, whilst others allow more for free thought and beliefs. It doesn’t even have to be on a social level; the home can affect it too. A lot of children are told to believe in certain things and are always told that that is right. They were given a lot of information presented as fact when they were extremely impressionable and didn’t know better – which i disagree with completely. It’s not really fair. And i know that there are religions (most of them actually) that endorse this. I know that this is true because when i went to this xtian youth club/bible meeting thingy (purely to spend more time with my very christian sadly-now-my-ex-girlfriend… the things i did for love ) the guy who was leading the discussion said something along the lines "those of us who received benefits such as being read the bible when we were young…"
it is just brainwashing. to an extent.
and i do not agree with it. even less so when schools decide to tell children that a certain religion is right or whatever (kansas schoolboard, i’m looking at YOU!)

[Tree_Spirit]

Ok,I’ll address one topic at a time

-religion = war, rape, slavery & murder on an extreme scale .

The question implies that if a good God exists, then evil shouldn’t because God being all powerful should stop it. This question has been asked sp many of times.Why God allows,
extreme evil,in the name of religion.Or extreme evil period.

We need to ask and answer two questions. First, what is evil? It is that which is against God. It is anything morally bad or wrong. It is injurious, depraved, wicked. Some acceptable examples might be murder, rape, stealing, lying, and cheating. Second, if we want God to stop evil do we want Him to stop all evil or just some of it? In other words, if just some of it then why? If He were to stop only part of the evil, then we would still be asking the question, \"Why is there evil in the world?\".

Let’s suppose that someone was about to commit murder. God would have to stop him, maybe whisper in his ear, or if that didn’t work do something a little more drastic like have something fall on him, or stop his heart, or make his hands suddenly fall off. Anyway, God would have to do something.

What if somebody wanted to steal? God would have to stop him too, right? Undoubtedly, God’s imagination would permit a more practical method than I have suggested, but the end results would be the same.

What about lying? If someone were to tell a lie, then to be consistent wouldn’t you want God right there to stop that person from lying? After all, He couldn’t let any evil occur could He?

Let’s take it a step further. Suppose someone thought something evil. Then, of course, God would have to step in and prevent him from thinking anything bad at all, right? The end result would be that God could not allow anyone to think freely. Since everyone thinks and no one thinks only pure thoughts, God would be pretty busy and we wouldn’t be able to think. Anyway, at what point do we stop, at the murder level, stealing level, lying level, or thinking level? As your questions implies, if you want God to stop evil, you would have to be consistent and want Him to do it everywhere all the time, not just pick and choose. It wouldn’t work.

Evil is in this world partly because we give it its place but ultimately because God, in His sovereignty, permits it and keeps it under His control.

Then you might say, \"Couldn’t He just make us perfect and that way we wouldn’t sin?\" He already did that. He made a perfect angel, Satan, but he sinned. He made a perfect man, Adam, and he sinned. He made a perfect woman, Eve, and she sinned. God knows what He is doing. He made us the way we are for a purpose. We don’t fully understand that purpose, but He does.

1. God is sovereign; He has the right to do as He wishes. He has the right to permit evil for accomplishing His ultimate will. How can He do that? Simple, look at the cross. It was by evil means that men lied and crucified Jesus. Yet God in His infinite wisdom used this evil for good. It was on the cross that Jesus bore our sins in His body (see 1 Peter 2:24) and it is because of the cross that we can have forgiveness of sins.
2. Consider the biblical example of Joseph in the Old Testament. He was sold into slavery by his brothers. Though they meant it for evil, God meant it for good (See Genesis 50:20). God is so great that nothing happens without His permission, and in that permission His ultimate plan unfolds. In His plan He is able to use for good what man intends for evil. God is in control.

[Tree_Spirit]

So, how practical is Christianity? The Bible presents an infinite Creator with the very attributes we would expect when we examine the things that are made. And God, as a personal Being, in order that He might have a love relationship with us, gave us the capacity of choice. In order that we might have a practical revelation of His love, His wisdom, His power, His glory, He became one of us in the person of the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

In order that we might not suffer the penalty of our evil choices (sin), He, like a loving father, paid the penalty for our sins. He allowed his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to be murdered on a Roman cross (arguably the most evil act in the history of the universe, if He is indeed God’s Son). But this act of great evil gave rise to an even better state of affairs, and the greatest act of love in the universe: paying the penalty for the wrong choices we make, which were the result of the way He created us in the first place! In the cross of Christ He has provided a full pardon from the consequences of the evil in our lives. Consequently, we cannot look to God and declare that He is unfair. Far from being a devil, in this examination of the problem of evil, God becomes the hero of the plot and the solution to the problem of evil. And it all hinges on LOVE. Indeed, God is love. What must we do to receive this pardon?

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 3:16

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.Romans 10:9

[Tree_Spirit]

I really dislike that theres is a limit on a post.Lucky,I copy it before hand.I keep forgetting to push preview.I would lose all that i type.On a side note to this,i’ll try to answer other questions set before me. But I’m not a all knowing being myself.You ask really tough questions Arthur,thank you for that.I like that you make me think,like people that do that.Evil exist in the world because of *free will*. I pretty much type out a big post.Plus soon I’ll have get back to my studies And running a kids website has my hands very much full these days.

Psssst lilkitn…

lilkitn wrote:
Wow, this is turning out to be a great debate, and with no fighting… I’m loving this! <edit> But what I find most impressive is how both sides have agreed to disagree and are peacefully debating their sides. My hat is off to you guys! I think the world leaders could learn so much from this type of discussion. Perhaps then there would finally be peace.[/quote:81ma0b6u]

Thanks for the compliment.I’m not here to fight or insult.Just have a debate with someone I respect.When you have respect,nothing that you can’t accomplish with other person ,as I see it.Also,the question of empirical evidence is an honest one.That you have really be in search of Truthful answers by using evidence,and not being close hearted also.

Arthur wrote:Thank you. This is a BIG compliment. You know… Religion divides, but Billy binds. Cool[/quote:81ma0b6u]

I believe Billy could bind almost anyone,in any social or cultural group together.We all think he is REALLY A AWESOME PERSONALITY.

[Superlordspamulon]

I find the idea of god giving us free will and letting us use it as we will quite strange… and a little bit mean in what comes of it.

God gave us the gift of free will – he wishes us to use it as we see fit. However, if we exercise this free will in a manner that is ‘against god’ (or, rather, ‘non-pro god’) we are punished severely. So therefore, god is giving us the free will to do as he says, or be punished – as if saying \"Here are your options. but i’m gonna hurt you a lot unless you pick these ones\".

So is this free will?

One could argue that if god made it so that we have no free will at all, and simply follow him like sheep, it wouldn’t have been good – what would have been the point, etc. But if he made us like robots, it would have been wasteful – how many billions of people he’s created have been sent to hell?

Basically, we only seem to be rewarded for exercising our free will provided that what we’ve done with this free will suits his desires.

Which leads to another point – isn’t god the ultimate selfish being? He created us to essentially serve him, punishing us if we don’t. We have to dedicate our lives to him, we have to go to him for help, we have to give all our love to him, we have to spend a lot of our free time on him, we have to do a lot for him. All for the reward of joining him in the afterlife. Yes he has shown acts of selflessness, yet he also displays a LOT of selfishness. Surely if he was all-loving and omniscient, he would want what is best for us as individuals and realise that what’s best will be different, person to person.

ooh! Another point, which i am not sure if i’ve brought up already.
Did satan not rebel against god? Does he not possess a hatred towards god? (correct me if i’m wrong)
So why would he be helping god, by punishing those that have gone against god? Wouldn’t satan simply make hell a pretty decent place to be, simply out of spite for god?

[lilkitn]

You know what I wonder sometime… I wonder if THIS is reality. I mean, people ask to prove there is a God, but I ask you… prove there is existance. How do I know that I am actually typing this right now? How do I know this isn’t all a dream, that this isn’t all in my head. I know it’s a really crappy way to compare, but think of the matrix… the field of people hooked into the ‘system’… how do we know we aren’t in a similar situation? How do I know you even exist, how do you know I exist? This is where it gets DEEP!

[Superlordspamulon]

You know what I wonder sometime… I wonder if THIS is reality. I mean, people ask to prove there is a God, but I ask you… prove there is existance. How do I know that I am actually typing this right now? How do I know this isn’t all a dream, that this isn’t all in my head. I know it’s a really crappy way to compare, but think of the matrix… the field of people hooked into the ‘system’… how do we know we aren’t in a similar situation? How do I know you even exist, how do you know I exist? This is where it gets DEEP![/quote:1hb8yi61]

Are you awake lilkitn?

The Matrix has you.

but seriously. You’re just getting philosophical now. This is as real as we can possibly now in our present state, so just accept is as reality. It makes life so much simpler

[Arthur]

I find the idea of god giving us free will and letting us use it as we will quite strange… and a little bit mean in what comes of it.

God gave us the gift of free will – he wishes us to use it as we see fit. However, if we exercise this free will in a manner that is ‘against god’ (or, rather, ‘non-pro god’) we are punished severely. So therefore, god is giving us the free will to do as he says, or be punished – as if saying "Here are your options. but i’m gonna hurt you a lot unless you pick these ones".

So is this free will?[/quote:1zj4ap6e]
Agree, another paradox, not answered by any book… I have another explanation to what we like to refer to as "free will". Free will is something we use in situations where we have options to choose from, and at the same time we are aware we have options. But do we always know we have options? And if we do, do we know ALL options? Do we know thoroughly every effect of every choice? No, we don’t. Actually we never do. So how hard is it to make the right choice? It’s impossible. There is no free will ultimately.

So mankind’s free will is limited to the options we know. And religion limits the options we have even more, sometimes to pretty hurtful levels. Think of it, religious leaders stating we can’t use condoms, or can’t have sex at all even, so AIDS is spreading, or only after marriage we can find out our partner happens to be "cold" in bed… And we are talking about the ONLY loving, intimate activity that separates the friends from the spouses here! So what we call evil, doesn’t come from *free will*, it comes from religion itself, and every almighty, loving god allows this situation to continue.

Paradox, no answer… No answer, no almighty god. Let alone the gods gave us free will…

[Arthur]

but think of the matrix…[/quote:1cnfw712]
I just loved that movie, it made me realise again that we should always try to think "out of the box". Always take the same pill as Neo, when you feel ready… But I can’t answer this question about reality yet, as I don’t know all concepts of reality. The buddhists however have pretty cool visions and thoughts about "this illusionary dream we call reality". You might want to try reading "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, An Inquiry into Values" by Robert M. Pirsig also, lilkitn. Very philosophical…

Oh by the way, I’m no buddhist myself.

But I do respect many of their visions on life. Humble, compassionate, understanding, peaceful. And you can just pick 1 of the buddhas you like, to use as an example or teacher for your own life. Can be a killer also, that got enlightened anyway for some reason. And when you want to drop him, just do… And pick a new one. But it comes with many rituals also in most cults, and women cannot become nuns everywhere, so there is something to criticize also.

[lilkitn]

Yeah I’ve heard of that book before… I should really pick it up. I could talk philosophy for hours, I just love it… it’s all, what if’s… makes you really open your mind.

I have a few comments about ‘free will’. From studying various religions I have come to the conclusion that everything happens for a reason, even the bad things. See, the bad things give us a reason to appreciate the good things in life, and we always learn from our mistakes, which is the important thing. I think tragedies can have great outcomes. For example, the child who has lost her mother to domestic violence that grows up to be an advocate, and eventually saves lives. Another example, the musician who is abused as a child, deals with his pain through poetry and songwriting, only to release amazing music that he might not have been able to write if it wasn’t for his life experiences. So basically, I’m saying that we do have free will, we can choose the easy path, or we can choose the hard path… learn the lessons we need to, and move on.

Kit’n

[Anonymous]

—

[Tree_Spirit]

I believe in only one god aka one higher power,he is the only one.Even tho he goes by many names in many tongues and langauges.

As we Chrsitians see it,and also it is the First& Second Commandment

Exodus 20:4 \"

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments..

And I know where this debate is head as i post this,but i’m prepared for it.

[BleedingTheOrchid]

for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God[/quote:8d5e53z6]
he is human after all

[Author]

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