Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Counting down the hours before we’re having a little get-together of the Dutch SP old-timers
))Plus: we’ll transfer these two shows!
while i totally didn’t care for the first batch of four songs, this one does show a return to form…
there’s a lot of Zwan going on in here and a Zeitgeist-era groove and passion in rock…
it’s still a little bit too repetitive for my taste; but, it’s a great groover from the Corgan file nonetheless…
a little bit of a shame Mike doesn’t really exactly shine on this track, but keeping the beat; a little bit of Geek USA magic (basically too a well-constructed pretty groover riff and nothing more, made great by ferocious drumming) would have propelled this track to greatness… still: it’s the best so far from the Teargarden bunch… pretty damn solid!
– the virgin cd sets contain the same audio as the mp3s on the old sp.com, transferred from tigershorty’s vinyl copy. (did virgin do the transfer themselves and give sp.com/billy one of the cd sets so they could make the mp3s, or did tigershorty do the transfer and give the audio to virgin to make the cd sets?)
[/quote:22urajj0]tigershorty did the transfer, presumably himself. as far as i know he provided virgin with the cd’s from which these promo’s were sourced.
the audio on the website was the same transfer done by tigershorty.
and: yes, i meant the tapes BC gave away in analog format during the S+P tour in the USA to test if analog source material would spread in the fanbase.
yep, it’s a pretty cool item; big poster like artwork and a fish eye lense over the band picture so it looks kinda cool 3D-ish…
))It was you that outbid me then.
Seems like an uncut 7" test.[/quote:kdrvc7x1]
Are all 7"s made from cut 12"ers? I thought 7"s were made from 7" acetates. I had no idea they were made from 12"s and then "cut".
[/quote:kdrvc7x1]i think both options are used. somehow i do think a 7" is always cut on a 12" acetate plate and then cut to make the master/mother. this test press was made from the uncut acetate plate which i believe is a little bit of a curious anomaly, but pretty cool nonetheless…
UM…..
Tarantula 12" test press w/ Death from Above b-side.
[/quote:23pfub7i]Congrats, that’s a pretty cool item; funny thing they left it uncut…
Looks quite cool that way…i think he got the chronology wrong.
before MACHINA was released, Virgin had scrapped the idea of a second MACHINA record. i believe that BC went back to Virgin at a later moment to again discuss the release idea for M2, but Virgin indeed wouldn’t have it as they didn’t see the potential of the material, plus: they didn’t know how to market M2 and the online free download plans.
this decision led BC to further his plans to release the music on his own. his initial idea in fact had been to release half online for free and half as a normal release. i believe this applied only to MACHINA vs MACHINA 2, where MACHINA would be the normal release and M2 would be the free record. M2 would remain shelved as Virgin didn’t want to release it in any way, not the album and not the extra recorded tracks which ended up on the EPs.
when considering BCs MACHINA release plan, there was no talk of a vinyl set or anything, let alone the sleeve design et cetera. maybe Virgin did hear master recordings from the sessions back then. the split into the EPs and the album for M2 was only decided upon when making the vinyl sets.
these Virgin promos were created after the vinyl sets were cut from one of the 25 copies. the exact moment is unknown, but these were not made in the decision making process for releasing M2 which led to the fallout. just very maybe Virgin did consider a proper release eventually post factum after M2 had been spread following the vinyl release. this doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense as the material was out there and the relation with BC was down the drain.
the whole idea of the analogue format on vinyl vs the online free distribution was only thought and planned out after the fallout leading up to the release of the 25 sets. this method was even tested in a lowkey way by BC during the USA tour on MACHINA. seeing how this worked, BC decided upon the manufacturing of M2 on vinyl and the spreading through some key fans in the community. this was not part of the initially planned release process for MACHINA and M2.
also, what i never really understood is the story of machina II.
the first story i heard is that billy wanted to release machina II, but then, when things didn’t work out with virgin, he pressed 25 copies on vinyl, and sent them out with the message to share it.
now, according to the story that explains where these virgin in-house promo sets come from, the vinyl came first. (see one of those archive netphoria threads.) and before anything else, the vinyl was sent out. because then the virgin in-house promo sets were made, sourced from tigershorty’s copy (so he must already have received his copy). the sets were made at a time they were discussing if and how to release machina II. and it’s only when things didn’t work out with virgin that billy told people to share it.
so, is that what happened? did everyone first receive their copy, and only got the message to share it weeks or months later?
or did he give one copy out, to tigershorty (for whatever reason), and only sent the other ones out after the virgin debacle, with the message to share it?does anyone have any links to messages from those days. when did the world find out about machina II? was the audio shared at the same time? any chance any of the sharers mentioned at that time when their vinyl set arrived? (did they have it for weeks, or did it arrive that day?)
i’m sure there’s a good explanation, but right now, the stories don’t really match for me.
if there would be an obvious explanation why tigershorty got his copy of machina II long before anyone else, then i guess the stories do match. is there a good explanation? who is he? wasn’t he in charge of the official website?[/quote:pye1m8yt]M2 was discussed for release by Virgin. Virgin declined, BC sais fuck you and had 25 copies cut and distributed with the message to spread the music asap on the web. this was a preplanned ction as he had leaked analogue source material prior working towards this release to test if it would work.
when the vinyl was FedExed to the fans they immediately posted about it and the tracks followed very soon after.
tigershorty got his copy together with everyone else. all copies were cut in one weekend by a friend of BC. the fan copies were all sent out in one go. not all copies were distributed though at the same moment, some people got theirs later and BC still has some copies left. if i recall correctly tigershorty even got his copy a little after the fans got theirs.
tigershorty made a rip for the TSP.com site. this was quite some time after the Eric Agnew rip was spread widely. i seem to remember this was before the Q101 rip though. his rip was also used for the in-house promos. these were made at a much later moment. BC surely didn’t have his copy of this in-house promo during the final European tour. he had copies burned for the band by a fan while on tour for Melissa to listen to as they were playing songs from M2 and planning on including more in the sets.
my German M2 promo was made for Christmas 2000. my guess is these in-house Virgin promos were either made while the band was on tour or for the end of the year as a gift to some hot-shots.
I’m with you, glassonglass, it can still be considered a kinda underground thingy in this non-vinyl era, so hardcore vinyl collectors will always consider this as a rare and valuable item, I guess. And it is already reaching the I Am One 7" collectors’ prices, in just a few days… But if those prices stand long term, I don’t know.
At least we can say, we are all surprised by this move, and most are pleasantly surprised![/quote:37c7hz4z]
maybe…
the current high prices on auction are just a matter of people missing out on the initial release snatching up any copy hitting the market. as there’s no exclusive material there and since it is not one of the highlight releases as per the inherent song material and as those things do matter to and for vinyl collectors and collectors per se the limited amount pressed will be and remain an important factor/issue, still it’s mostly an oddity release when compared to a debut release 7" or a release on an imprint like Sub Pop. don’t forget the value per se of the name TSP has markedly decreased over the last years, also and mostly reflected in the values for the post-reunion items.
we’ll see what happens. considering collectors interest in other bands i’ve seen marked interest in the long run for older and baseline important releases when compared to much rarer releases from an era considered to be of lower artistic quality. for example: for Nine Inch Nails all and everything around The Downward Spiral and The Fragile era’s is quite sought after, while prior and most markedly after, the values drop quite dramatically.
i also mean: the marketplace is not totally blind or stupid as to look to the limited edition factor only. you could release a fart by BC on a super limited 7", but would it fetch any high prices? there’s still a lot of value in the musical content itself. i’d be very surprised if the long term value of these 7" will remain to top USD 100.
The only thing these two releases have in common with the grey Tristessa or I Am One flexi is the small quantity.
The new releases are:
– brand new; not old
– pressed in low quantity on purpose (and not by accident, or because it’s a promo, or because the band isn’t well known yet). Feels like an artificial rarity. Maybe created to increase interest? (Or maybe because of a new realism: "If we press 1000, they’ll never sell out.")
– done very quickly for Record Store Day (I get that impression). I’m not saying this is what happened, but maybe they just said something like "hey, yes, you can download the mp3s of our website and press two singles." That’s the feeling I get.On top of that, they don’t contain anything interesting, anything that isn’t out there yet.
Has anyone listened to their WWMM/Song for a Son 7"? Did you notice that both songs fade out early? I think this adds to the crappiness of this release.[/quote:3eltzjbe]
i too got the feeling this super limited edition was a split decision between making sure the edition sold out on the one hand and a marketing plot to garner any new or revived interest, maybe even lifting on the coattails of the massive Record Store Day promotion for the Teargarden project which hasn’t exactly been met with quite favorable press…
i’m not saying it’s a really desperate attempt to launch TSP into some limelight with a couple of quickies, but it sure looks like it from some valid perspectives. since the releases don’t contain any exclusive material, fade out, miss labels et cetera, i just cannot see these retain any long term high collectors value.
Are you guys proud/happy/etc. to have these? Is this a "special" thingy in your collection? Just curious, as everybody is kinda cool about it…[/quote:29gfitrc]
As someone who has always been a "numbers" guy in terms of pressing quantity, I would say that these should rank in the area of Grey Tristessa/I Am One Flexi territory. Only 250 copies made each, which makes it extremely limited in terms of the 7" history of the band, which is why I mentioned the Grey Tristessa/I am One Flexi. Plus, with the unexpected nature of release (only 2 locations, with no advance notice), this is pretty cool.
I think these will only increase in value as time goes own, especially if the Teargarden series takes off. Of course, I don’t know how long it will take to release 11 boxsets. At the rate we’ve currently been going, it may be 2020 before it is done…heh.
Personally, I just wish they had spent the extra money and put labels on the 7". They almost look like bootleg productions, but with the 7" pictured in the Teargarden Vol. 1 boxset not having a label either, I guess this is what they decided. At least put "SP" or "Pumpkins" in the run-off groove…heh.
Just my 2 cents.[/quote:29gfitrc]
while i do agree on the inherent rarity aspect of these releases, i think there’s quite a difference when comparing these new releases to rarities like the grey Tristessa and the I Am One flexi in terms of collecting value.
the market for TSP has somewhat collapsed since the break-up and current reformation of ‘the band’, coupled with the contemporary status of the band featuring only BC from the original line-up, and considering the impact and musical/productional quality of the recent material.
TSP used to be in the limelight and the collectors market reflected the mainstream popularity of the band in quite high prices for the really rare items.
the market for the non die-hard collector has since slowed down i feel. even the die-hard collector of days past, quite often doesn’t follow the band nowaays in and with everything now released. not only does time move on, people also judge on the current material.
therefore i believe the early rarities will always remain in higher regard and thus in higher value than these two very rare and quite surprising vinyl releases.
of course only time will tell and a 250 only release by the name TSP will be a valuable item for sure, it’s just that i feel the infamous tracks like Tristessa or I Am One will win any day over the recent material, also in terms of collectors value.
having said this; the availability of the older gems is quite lower than these in the current markets. the early ones are secured by collectors now. collectors really needing to keep their collections up to date will pay top dollar now and snatch up their copies. i just don’t believe this will be reflected in a long term quite high value.There’s also a silver discs Boot version. I myself didn’t see many of those around, I’m guessing they’d not have sold too well; or produced many copies (?):
[/quote:gvat8i2d]that’s a funny thing…
the 2CD set was made by the guys from the Dutch TSP fanclub / newsletter NSPN…
Jeroen, Vincent, Anne and me were involved.
You can see our initials at the back
Jeroen did the editting and the artwork.
We used the Q101 version to produce this for the people of the fanclub / newsletter and put it up for download for free of course only.
Some bootlegger got a hold of the artwork and decided to make this into a bootleg release to be sold.
Nothing even changed in the artwork only that we had made a black one for the album and a white one for the three EPs, hence the CR numbers on the back liner; the album one only had one CR code of courseI’ve ordered numerous items over the last couple of months online and have not experienced any troubles with the mail here in The Netherlands, everything has arrived and quite timely too.
It may be a local problem or something with your national mail?
Whatever the explanation for the loss or delay of your packages, I can feel your frustration and hope the items do turn up. Good luck.
i think this is from 1993.
it is mentioned on SPLRA.i think it says Shudder to Think and The Frongs below TSP.
these bands were the opening act during the autumn 93 leg of the SD tour.1994 doesn’t seem to work for me. the tour ended on Lolla. a single club show doesn’t really make any sense to me, especially on the same date exactly a year later.
Lock Me Up is indeed a curious new addition to the setlists!
good luck with the Greta Garbo tape…
i’d be more than curious to finally hear the whole tape.
as far as i know it’s all acoustic stuff or mostly which makes it even more interesting.hope this works out!
i really think what bugs me most is the fact BC’s going on all about this enlightenment and all and he’s the ego maniac with resentment issues and a bad case of ‘please don’t think i’m the bad guy so you won’t love me anymore’-issues; see If All Goes Wrong…
re-read the remarks he’s made about D’Arcy. And James. And now even JC.
re-read the remarks he’s made about the early years, denouncing Roesing and Mike Potential.
the guy’s got some major delusional issues…without JC TSP would never have been the band it once was and at least not that huge.
in a way the same can be applied to the levelling influence of D’Arcy and the input James brought to the band.
just look for clues when these were fading out of the equasion and hear how the tension in the material faded too.TSP never was: THE BIG BC PARADE; it was a team effort, whether BC played most of the guitars or not on record.
TSP now is: THE BIG BC PARADE…
well, ok dude; make it happen and bring on the good stuff you say you have in droves.but hey; don’t look back and denounce the very people that brought you and helped you gain the fame and cash to work with now.
praise to James and JC for taking the high road and higher ground.it’s just pathetic how it’s all about poor old BC and the mean people he’s been surrounded with. well, boo-hoo dude, YOU could’ve / should’ve walked away… you didn’t and you don’t, cause you cling to the fame and name and money… and to now all of a sudden sell Today to VISA when the TSP-stance on licensing songs, especially Today and Disarm for use in commercials was always very clear and stern… dunno… someone is losing it on a major scale. and don’t get me wrong: that’s a very sad thing to see happen and of course even worse: to hear happen in the musical output too.
oh my god…
just now i read the RS article…
BC seems to be in quite a sorry state of mind to unleash this shit storm in the major press.
at least for me personally there has to be quite a lot of mending to occur in terms of future music or interviews to regain any respect for this sorry excuse of an artist and band which BC and TSP is at the moment.
there’s no way BC can claim the way he talks straight the whole JC story is ok, in any case; dirty laundry in the press BC? get a clue and a life… this is getting insane.the killing of the website.
the situation with JC and him quitting.
Ginger and Lisa quitting.
the whole overblown concept stuff.
the Jessica S. situation.
and now this with the JC diss and all in RS…this sure does seem like a downward spiral speeding towards the absolute zero.
sure enough i’m glad there’s a lot of great music in the TSP legacy to enjoy…
Let me bring in 2 recent personal quotes about this, from other related topics… Hope you don’t mind!
I’m quite happy with what is released so far for the Teargarden project, and whatever you think of the Smashing Pumpkins… but Billy Corgan was and is and most probably always will be the main man of the band, if not THE BAND itself. I have no issues with that, and I don’t understand why some people keep coming back to any old band members.
Also I don’t understand why some people stick to some "era" of the band when they were "the best" or "on top of anything". Of course I have my favourite (mostly the rock/metal) songs also, but over the 24 years that we know Billy, being a quite productive musician, he has ALWAYS changed his style, and with every album we learned a different side of him/his band. For me, that is why he is so attractive to me as a musician… And that’s also why I will always be curious to what he is going to release next. Just my 2 cents here…
/Unquote 1 and 2[/quote:40ty7zat]
what i was mostly trying to say is exactly that TSP was not and now is BC’s thing per se. The work produced with D’Arcy and James and JC has a visceral energy lacking from all subsequent works BC’s been involved in/with. It’s not bringing up the old band members; it’s basically just the very fact the band from JC’s joining in 1988 was just that: a band, with BC being the main creative force to be reckoned with, but it worked as a unit and that unit was TSP. JC and BC tried their best to revive that spirit in 2007 and failed on a massive scale; ‘If All Goes Wrong’ remember… JC quit. Now BC’s the only TSP-member left in the fold. There’s just nothing TSP about the band anymore than the fact BC’s in the band and he’s using this band name. Heck to me even Zwan could have been more deserving of the TSP name than this collection of random individuals around BC. And that’s the whole point: TSP turned into a real band pretty soon after the band got together. Now we have a coming and going of band members with BC the Czar mapping out a course of 11 subsequent releases in an ambitious concept and to be honest; it’s just a BC solo project under the TSP name to me. And that’s not TSP to me. And i even feel it hurts the legacy of TSP; the band turning into a laughing stock with all these insane 11 release-scheme plans and concepts based on the tarot and all while the music trails behind and leaves a lot to be desired, not only in terms of older TSP prowess, but also in terms of inherent quality. The three EP1 songs for Teargarden (how bloody stupid is the word-play of the title by the way, cringeworthy) wouldn’t have made it past B-side status 10 years ago, left alone 15 years ago. So there you have the decline of TSP…
i own this tape
got it from someone who worked at virgin back in the day. i also got the ones mentioned in this thread [url:3va0mbl7]http://forum.spfreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=1331[/url:3va0mbl7][/quote:3va0mbl7]cool. congrats.
must have missed the older thread on this topic.
nice, very nice find.well arthur, thnx.
giving away below par music, doesn’t mean the giving away part in itself is not to be appreciated. i find it a bold and ambitious move, but just feel most of the post-2000 music just doesn’t do the TSP name very much good.
music for free is a great idea; bad music for free is just what it is and a little bit gratuit…
i’m not faulting BC for bandmates getting pregnant. i’m only faulting him on his work. his recent material doesn’t hold up against the older stuff, at least to me. the band falling apart isn’t helping things either in terms of this incarnation of TSP amounting to anything more than the BC solo band with the TSP name just to be able to play the old songs. that’s not what the TSP used to stand for imho. the razor sharp cutting edge and vanguard attitude seems to have been lost musically in recent years. circumstances such as losing JC will in fact have contributed to this demise, but yeah well; why would JC of all people leave?
the marketing policy is sketchy imho because the release over time of so many individual releases in expensive format is asking a lot from an almost non-existing fanbase when compared to the high times in the 90s. an overblown concept album didn’t really work that well for TSP before, remember MACHINA and why would it work now, even over such a prolonged period of time. attention span seems to be at an all time low you know?!
young people in the band is no problem. it’s just that Ginger and Lisa were experienced in the TSP touring band. Mike does a decent job. maybe the new people are better than Ginger and Lisa. with a rock band it’s not just about the playing ability; people tend to identify with people in the band. losing JC and now Ginger and Lisa too, this factor is quite lost. therefore i can’t fault people for looking to TSP as the new BC solo band under a different guise; just using the TSP name because of past accomplishments. don’t get me wrong: i might be proven wrong, but there’s very little to go by in recent times to have blind faith in things not going wrong again for TSP. and to be quite honest; TSP is still too dear to my heart to see whither away in a barely decent form both musical and per personel. it’s just that it all seems like a downward spirl to me; with the new material being even below the not that high par of the American Gothic EP (which was a commercial failure of epic proportions) and with this material not being quite popular in the current music market. i just feel TSP had done best to burn out brightly in 2000 and leave it at that in stead of fading away into overblown massive concepts.
and hey; who the hell needs an obelisk???? i’d prefer a plain white sleeved 12\" white label with two stunning songs any day… but then again: who knows what’s in the cards…
pretty shitty way to steal the heart image and post it on a pretty crappy box full of Nirvana bootlegs…
damn; tacky…Just checked with the seller and they said that they contacted the radio station,who said this….
”i think that is a bit of misconception. i called Q101 and they said interns worked there and initially there were to be only 1000, and then they subsequently made more. thus the numbering is all over the place with some of the cd’s. thats at least what the station has said.”
Doesn’t sound that bad,but i got a reply to my question after about 10 minutes,which makes me think.
I also got this about 2 weeks ago sealed for 12GBP.
http://www.spfreaks.com/default.aspx?pa … &item=2977[/quote:30wk0x5t]
i believe i heard a similar story before. it does not sound to strange to my ears.
by the way indeed, the release itself does look very much to be the real thing.
good luck!
Ohh I see then.. It has nothing to do with Remove That Bible.
Also I was reading the other day about the song Bleed in the Mashed Potatoes version.
This version features one guitar, one bass and a drum machine.. We can conclude that Billy is playing
bass because of the precision of his bass playing.. it’s definetely not d’arcy. Here is the interesting thing,
the only show known with the James and Billy lineup is the 07/09/88 show at Chicago 21. So we may conclude that this is a version from an unknown live show or otherwise which I hardly doubt is that Billy might have recordings to this 07/09/88 show. Also billy said that they played around 10-12 shows before jimmy joined the band and there are only 3 shows that we know about before jimmy’s debut with SP on 10/05/88. Also I remember Jimmy saying that he saw the band a couple of times before the avalon show on 08/10/88, and we only know of ONE show before that. [/quote:11ngqqve]There is a full recording of the 880709 Chicago21, Chicago, IL show, for sure. BC taped it himself, including the opening act that night.
Bleed is most likely from an unknown show, indeed.
In those days TSP played bars, not concert venues per se. Often not announced or shortly beforehand. Not all concert dates are known in these early days. Lots of info is still missing there.
Also the I Fall sessions.. I just discovered that these sessions took place at the end of 1987 and it was a set of 12 songs, I fall being one of those 12. So we can conclude that Billy HAD this recordings at least until 1989 when he added I fall into the Gish/Moon tape. Apparently this tape has been lost according to Sven. [/quote:11ngqqve]
There was a time around end of 87 and beginning of 88 when BC and JI recorded several songs at home. Technically these were not real sessions per se, but as was even the case with the early studio demo recordings: more or less an ongoing process when they had some time on their hands. It appears these recordings can be supposed to have yielded around 12 songs. I Fall is one of these songs. BC himself seems to have lost the recording of I Fall as per his own statement. I’m not sure if other songs from this era were lost too.
