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Interviewer mentions "secret messages etched into the dead space before the label"
http://youtu.be/zd0mbIUUdng?t=4m36s
But Billy doesn’t seem to lift even an eyebrow.
(skip to 4:36)[/quote:36t6bcov]
nice find, great interview and there’s another nice one in the side-bar too which is also pretty cool!
could be any record.
like you said, i don’t think they ever use a record that matches the album they’re awarding.[/quote:1un0wej0]there has never been a vinyl cut for Zeitgeist.
not only because the label didn’t want to make one, but also because it was an even worse job to cut a master than MACHINA / The Machines of God.it would be funny to find out what record is inside this award
don’t think so, but it might be so… very very slim chance…
i just can’t believe Pinkpop didn’t book TSP this year.
the programme has massive names in The Cure and Bruce Springsteen & The E-Street Band.
TSP would fit in perfectly.Was this CD a public promo? If I remember well, it was given away at some stores with Machina?
http://www.spfreaks.com/default.aspx?pa … S&item=349 (7 track sampler)[/quote:pu6ijjqf]
i believe it was given to people who pre-ordered.i wasn’t there though. this is just what i remember reading about that release.[/quote:pu6ijjqf]
yeah something like that.
when you pre-ordered at certain stores this was given away for free upon purchase, i think…
def. a general public promo cd.And this one?
http://www.spfreaks.com/default.aspx?pa … S&item=184 (1 of the many Machina CD-R promos)
Promo (Inhouse) or not? I put it to Promo (Media) for a start.
In fact I have hard times differentiating CDs and CD-Rs (official) starting in 1997 (TEITBITE) and onwards, like with all the Adore and Machina cds. As a rough indication I thought that handwritten cds are CD-Rs, and when a proper Hut or Virgin logo + text was printed on the cd, then it is CD. Which is not really a good indication, because some, if not most, of them are clearly CD-Rs. But well, it’s a start. Let me know your comments, please!
And this one… bleh. I kept it in CDs first, but it is clearly a CD-R.
http://www.spfreaks.com/default.aspx?pa … LS&item=35[/quote:3ltkr8zp]
THe Machina is a media promo as NONSTOP Promotions does media promo. I sometimes get cd(r)-s with their logo on them (from other bands that is).
So also the 5 tr samples would be a media promo as with all bearing the NONSTOP sticker.Rocket -> looks like a media promo to me.
MCIS -> yep, that’s a test pressing.
Aodre -> I’d say this might even have been a media promo. sometimes the label in any country employs a pressing studio / mastering studio to copy some cdrs for promotional use to radio, press and other media, so they don’t have to do it themselves and to guarantee good quality reproduction. it doesn’t make sense to have a German pressing/mastering studio make a test pressing for a cd record that was already tested in the USA, even if the EU pressing might have been done in Germany, this would have been done from the approved masters from the US I guess, right?
M2 US -> technically it’s not a test press but an inhouse cdr. it was in fact not made to test anything, just for inhouse use.
M2 UK -> i don’t think that many media got a full set though…
CR MG -> Town House one off cdr for one DJ only, well technically a media promo cdr
BBC -> yep
Inhouse cdrs -> not at all all are as for testing something…
CDRS -> seems right[/quote:spsjwfdc]
Yeah, fair enough. It bothered me also that I could not distinct test pressings from other inhouse cdrs anymore. Should we call, as a rough guideline, the Hut/Virgin cdrs inhouse promos (when it is clear that they were created for inhouse usage, of course), and the Masterdisk and Town House cdrs can be considered as test pressings?[/quote:spsjwfdc]yep something along those lines as the Town House one for Mark Goodier is not a test pressing technically, but OK, that’s just one then…
If I follow these guidelines, then I hope the following examples are right?
M2 US cd set: test pressing
M2 UK cd set: media promo
Cherub Rock Mark Goodier: media promo
BBC Transcription discs: glass master
All inhouse cdrs: test pressing
All cdrs send out for promotional reasons: media promoWe might want to reconsider quite a few entries, manilla…
[/quote:3qemtnio]M2 US -> technically it’s not a test press but an inhouse cdr. it was in fact not made to test anything, just for inhouse use.
M2 UK -> i don’t think that many media got a full set though…
CR MG -> Town House one off cdr for one DJ only, well technically a media promo cdr
BBC -> yep
Inhouse cdrs -> not at all all are as for testing something…
CDRS -> seems rightThe "CD Acetate"
When mastering to CD the Recordable CD or CDR is used in a similar way to acetates, with the sound being checked from a CDR.
In the early days of the CD some dealers sold these CDRs for very high prices and referred to then as "CD Acetates". The CDs used genuinely in studio or pressing plant are just as rare as acetates, however the growing availability CD Recorders has made them very easy to duplicate of forge.
CDRs have also become so cheap that they are often used instead of promos, with hundreds being manufactured and distributed.
The term CD Acetate has not survivedJust bringing in some research…[/quote:1ccn4dll]
Yep. It’s almost impossible to know if a CDR was used to check the master(ing) or was made as a promo for the press or something, unless, like the Town House one for CR and others of course, it’s obvious what the intention was.
For example: the M2 sets are technically NOT acetates but in-house promotional CDRs.The only one that still gets any attention today in our schools is the Holocaust and even that isn’t really taught to anyone. The only reason that still gets attention is because of Anne Frank and her diary.[/quote:2o3yqol8]
how is anne frank’s diary a reason to teach about the holocaust?
surely they have other reasons, and the diary is only one of the means to teach about it. no?[/quote:2o3yqol8]Agreed.
Same goes for:
Primo Levi
and, Eli Weisel by the way (with a major link to MCIS nonetheless)Good to hear this, this is exactly what we were so insecure about. New list, is this correct & complete?
1. studio master
2. factory acetate
3. test pressing (Masterdisk, Town House, "for reference", "pending approval", "inhouse use only" etc.)
4. media promo (WLP, watermarked cds, "For Promotional Use Only", etc)
5. general public promo (Live In Chicago MCIS cd, Metro give-away cd for example)
6. commercial (jukebox)
7. commercial (limited/numbered edition)
8. commercial (standard edition)And where would the Town House Post Production cd for Mark Goodier (the 1/1 pumped up version of Cherub Rock) fit in then?[/quote:2tj9fvqz]
seems right but i’ve seen Town House acetates on metal before, but then again, they also do mastering so that makes sense, yep, cool one, looks right.
I gave it another thought, discussed it a little with manillascissor outside this forum, and I would like to suggest the following types of release for the Smashing Pumpkins music releases, like vinyl and cds, based on their intended use.
1. studio master
2. acetate test pressing (Masterdisk, Town House, "for reference", "pending approval", "inhouse use only" etc.)
3. media promo (WLP, watermarked cds etc)
4. general public promo (Live In Chicago MCIS cd, Metro give-away cd for example)
5. commercial (jukebox)
6. commercial (limited/numbered edition)
7. commercial (standard edition)What is everybody’s thoughts on this?[/quote:1ut1imgy]
not really sure about point 2.
i mean a vinyl acetate is made of lacquered or non-lacquered metal. it’s the very first playable thing after the first master is cut, in wax.
after this, from the acetate a matrix is made. from this a test press is made to check the matrix quality and per thus the master cut.
so there’s a difference there between acetate and test-press.
acetate normally stay in the factory.
test pressings are send out to label, producer and band.i don’t think billy reads messageboards, and i don’t think he has people who check the messageboards for him. but that’s just me. i know nothing.[/quote:3o9lzvi5]
He does.
or: they do.
Really.
More often than I thought to be true, but he does, they do.this one was ordedered to be this way as per the label. so, yeah well… this was intentional…
[/quote:lcjbmfgk]
well of course it was intentional. obviously.
it’s just not very clear whose intention it was.and i don’t think bc not commenting on it means anything. he could choose to remain silent either way.
i think if he’s not behind it, aka the vandalism/graffiti scenario, he’d probably choose not to give this any extra public attention. it would be a bad move to make any statements about it. almost nobody knows about this, and he probably wants to keep it that way.
if he is behind it, he could confirm this. but if you look at the messages themselves, one can see why he would choose not to. or maybe he’s waiting until people have figured it out. unfortunately, he still hasn’t found out about that, as for some mysterious reason, nobody is reporting on this.[/quote:lcjbmfgk]It was at least the intention of the label, as they ordered the master cutter to this.
He was in touch with BC for far over a year in making these masters.
I just can not imagine it was not BC who ordered this in this way.wasn’t that rumour – that bc was upset about this – one of the main reasons to delete the tweet? and the start of the whole drama wave?
well, well…[/quote:skmotk8s]
Haha, good one. But no, not really. Maybe for 5% only. It is more complicated than that (and the details will remain in the SPfreaks.com board room), but it has to do with what we stand for, and what we want to reach in the long term, as a website dedicated to chronicle all items with the name Smashing Pumpkins. And I explained about that earlier on, where we can have spicy discussions and in-depth articles based on thorough research (and no ego will be safe there as long as it stays respectful in the outings, that’s a non-discussable rule), and where we want to attract fans, collectors, AND the band, since we need their first hand information. It’s a thin line sometimes, it’s about timing, and the platforms we provide as an independant non-commercial website, but it was good times to reflect on that again with the mods.[/quote:skmotk8s]Amen to that.
tried to, got very far, but he will refrain from commenting, at least: that’s what i’ve heard / been told.[/quote:20kujnd8]
Same results here. I’m quite sure I use different communication lines (at least not THAT straight to the band), so I can’t tell if Billy really knows. I guess he does, but since we don’t know his actions (put someone to court for this, or giving it a smirky smile from his couch), we can only guess. Both type of actions will lead to a short term silence, I can understand that.[/quote:20kujnd8]If I were BC and the label had ordered this and I would not be in the know I’d give them a good talking to and possibly even a public statement. The fact there’s a non-answer/statement from BC as per now, leaves me to think he was fully aware, just waited to see if someone would find out, had his fun about it and now is thinking maybe if this was too clever an act or not. Maybe then it’s best to just remain silent about it. And / or have private chuckle about it…
that’s the thing with these coded messages though: anyone could have added them. unless someone would have asked why the matrix code was suddenly a bit longer, nobody would have noticed.
on the other hand, i would expect everyone involved to have noticed – even i noticed, and i’ve got nothing to do with it – but who knows? if you’re not expecting people to add things to the matrix code, you probably don’t check if it looks ok all the time.[/quote:37hf2526]
maybe you don’t, normally.
we check these. collectors do. The Smiths are infamous for the messages and there are numerous remarks in dead wax matrix codes. sometimes cryptic, sometime plain.this one was ordedered to be this way as per the label. so, yeah well… this was intentional…
If this was done as per a form or anything I do not know. He just did what he was told, indeed.[/quote:20fewc6c]
It would be interesting to see the latest version of that form… Then we would know if it was added "sneakily", or with the knowledge of everybody involved in approving the (pressing of the) release. And it is also quite funny to read that the master-cutter did NOT know the meaning of the numbers when he was asked (or ordered by the form) to etch them.
[/quote:20fewc6c]He didn’t mention any form. He just told me he was "ordered" to cut the numbers and didn’t know that these did translate indeed to these messages, until I mentioned it to him
I don’t think we will get a scan from a form or the instruction from the master cutter, at least, I think I know enough now and I trust him. Therefore I don’t think I can ask him to provide this kind of ‘proof’. I’ll go by his word(s) and per that the fact that he was told to do this and did.
can someone fish for a reaction from billy?
now that we have good reasons to believe he is behind this himself, i think it’s safe to even do it via twitter. it doesn’t have to be with the spfreaks twitter, but i personally don’t see why not. one can simply ask about the "secret message". no need to spell them out. if billy is really behind it, he’ll know what is meant.[/quote:39cqh2sm]
tried to, got very far, but he will refrain from commenting, at least: that’s what i’ve heard / been told.
My answer now is: he was not ‘allowed’ to ‘put his signature in the dead wax’, he was told so.
Suffice to say for what I know that it wasn’t his personal idea by any means.
Also: he didn’t know of the messages decoded until I told him what these spelled out.[/quote:19bvpbwn]
ooh. interesting.so that guy from netphoria is right: people at the pressing plant just do as they’re told. they etch into the master whatever people ask them.
now the question remains: who asked for these coded messages to be added?
did someone somewhere in the chain between band and cutter try to add it sneakily?
was it requested properly, just like any band would request an extra message in the matrix code, by filling in the appropriate part on the appropriate form?[/quote:19bvpbwn]If this was done as per a form or anything I do not know.
He just did what he was told, indeed.But I’m still curious who ok-ed that on a higher level. And was the full text known to this person that ok-ed it?[/quote:3gzmiadw]
that remains a mystery for now.i thought we’d never hear anything from this, but with sven’s digging, we might actually find out what exactly happened.
what about bc’s reaction? has that been confirmed, or was that just a rumour?[/quote:3gzmiadw]
i do not know.
it was ‘an order’ from the label, at least, that’s what i know.i’ve heard that bc checked in with the master cutter / pressing plant on several occasions so I imagine this must have been to his knowledge and / or as per his very own idea.
i can’t think that bc’s reaction is anything but a rumour.
i’m impressed you got in touch with the guy who added these messages, sven. that is amazing.[/quote:2kk7hhbt]
Second that. That’s why I love the guy, he knows ways in this world I wouldn’t even know they existed.But I’m still curious who ok-ed that on a higher level. And was the full text known to this person that ok-ed it? I mean, when I read "FUCK YOU" and "WE LOVE YOU", it almost has the signature of Billy himself, since it are Smashing Pumpkins songs, and in this order it shows Billy’s twisted view on this world, as a person, and as an artist that was born from this person. I’m really cool with that.
But the other 2 texts? Meh.[/quote:2kk7hhbt]
the master cutter didn’t know the messages until I told him what these spelled out.
i’m impressed you got in touch with the guy who added these messages, sven. that is amazing.[/quote:1z84bij4]
thank you, much appreciated.
– so is it true that billy was upset when he heard about these? or is that an unconfirmed rumour? if not, who checked where?
– so this person was allowed to add his signature to the matrix code. it’s not clear who allowed him to do this.
— did it go all the way up to billy to give the ok (possibly without knowing what the extra numbers stood for)?
— or is it possible that someone above the master cutter gave the ok, but billy had no idea things were added?[/quote:2ywzgipo]1 -> can not be. the label or BC told the guy cutting the master to do so. It was something that came down as per ‘order’ from the label and as such I think from BC. I am not sure though. Of course it could have been a fluke joke by the label, pranking BC, but with a high profile release like this it feels highly unlikely. Also: I’ve had some answers from EMI now and this does not seem to point in that direction. It does point in one direction: the digit code for the dead wax signature was ‘ordered’ as per se by BC.
2 -> yes. and: of course. as per the label and as such, I imagine, the artist, i.e.: BC.
3 -> I don’t think so. it was specifically ordered as per such and there’s been multiple moments of contact between the master cutter and BC too in a period over 18+ months working on these re-issues.
i don’t understand what you’re trying to say.[/quote:1y30drhr]
OK I wil try again.
From what I’ve learned:
1- I know who cut the masters and therewith these matrix codes.
2- This person is extremely polite and gave me the information I asked for without any trouble.
3- He told me the whole of the release and mastering including the matrix codes as I asked about those specifically was "’legitimate".
4- He told me he’d never jeopardize anything with such a big release on his hands and was OK-ed to "put his signature in the Dead Wax".
5- There’s more, but I am not sure I am at liberty to talk about that in public, though nothing related to these matrix codes.That’s why I said: it’s legit or legitimate. There’s for me at least no reason to doubt this person.
I can’t say if he was told to sign the matrix the way he did or that BC explicit or implicit knew of this ‘signature’ and the message(s) spelled out. I just do not know. I can try to check this though. And will.[/quote:1y30drhr]
thank you for trying again.so what exactly are you saying here? that this person is legit, that you have no reason to doubt his version?
or that these messages were legitimated, that this person was allowed to add them (by "someone")?
by mentioning "put his signature in the dead wax", you imply these hidden messages are his. correct?[/quote:1y30drhr]The person is legit and legitimate.
There is no reason to doubt him.Your inferred reading of my words was correct.
As per: when I wrote these as that was my knowledge per then.My answer now is: he was not ‘allowed’ to ‘put his signature in the dead wax’, he was told so.
Suffice to say for what I know that it wasn’t his personal idea by any means.
Also: he didn’t know of the messages decoded until I told him what these spelled out.
