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  • in reply to: Cherub Rock WLP #29422


    thnx guys!
    great topic this ;)

    yep – the band LOVES vinyl-
    well- blame the label for NO vinyl release of ZEITGEIST
    not wanting to take the investment-risk? whatever?
    dunno- it’s been a label descision and how much can you do?

    dumping a cd-master unto vinyl-
    well- again: NIN remixes the total master for vinyl expressively-
    a lot of bands don’t-
    some TSP release did feature a vinyl-mix…
    some didn’t-
    most people won’t be able to tell I guess-
    and it’s an awesome amount of work-
    basically you’ve got to remix the \"master\" completely for this effort-
    so do a completely new mix for vinyl only-
    works better – then again: is it worth the hassle and effort?
    can you hear?
    and again – costs, label influence and all—-

    i agree Thom – i guess most WLPs are just the very first pressed-
    my copyright idea stems from the basic point that with a WLP (although you do get the press release and all) you basically can’t tell what you’re playing (this might be a little bit of legal detail of something) and thus not have to declare the song—
    don’t really know for sure- it was just a basic idea-

    Dunno- i mean; the flaws you describe, were they in the pressing per se?
    I.e. flawed pressings?
    Or are they down to incorrect handling at a later date?

    I mean-
    the band invests a lot into their arts and crafts-
    but making a ZEITGEIST 2LP costs a lot of cash-
    I guess it WOULD sell and they COULD do it or something (provided the contract allows them too)-
    But why would they? Given the response to the album and the current status?
    I just can’t see it happen – although the guys do love vinyl…. ;)

    in reply to: Cherub Rock WLP #29418


    bc himself told me they upped the bass levels of The Everlasting Gaze after checking the test pressings.
    basically this means the destruction of one side of the pressing mould, so one pressing plate and cutting a new master-side for the LP and fabricating a brand new pressing plate…

    now – with a totally cool balanced tone-arm (like my Technics SL1200MKII with Orotofon QBert cartridge) there’s just about no problem with the tracking… however: with my previous hi-fi pretty much higher part of the mid-range record player the bass response was so fucking heavy, the needle couldn’t and wouldn’t track in TEG exactly at the point where the band kicks in full force…

    i clearly remember bc’s words: ‘well, tough luck; this is what it’s supposed to sound like!’ with an added smile by the guy who in releasing Machina II exemplified his love for the vinyl format.. just check the releases for The Smashing Pumpkins, from the early days, right through the Siamese Singles and the MCATIS 3LP, Adore and the alternate master for Machina… this band loves vinyl… ;)

    yep – Gish was basically dumped to vinyl (with corrections of course for vinyl can’t handle the full motherload of a cd mastering mix), same goes for Siamese Dream… and my ears tend to think same applies to MCATIS… i guess that’s basically the cd-master dumped too… Adore got the monaural treatment… Machina on cd was a motherload of digital clipping and distortion which wouldn’t work on vinyl so the seperation and saturartion was altered, at least, so it sounds… it might have been a slightly different alternate master to retain the punch and massive sound but to accomodate the vinyl limitations and perks… Zwan was a cd-master dump too, but sounds better on vinyl still as it’s no 0dB mastering but slightly below so it’s not too saturated… i for me would love to hear JCs and BCs solo records on a proper vinyl mix or for that matter a proper mix down to vinyl for Zeitgeist’although with the latter i guess a lot of the mixing and separation was destroyed in the bouncing of analogue tracks in the mix down for the cd… a version of Zeitgeist pre-analogue bouncing saturation to the extreme max (which they did to make a cd sound somewhat akin to over-saturated analogue equipment to begin with) on vinyl, which would basically be an off the wall deep and hard and saturated maxing out the vinyl possibilities mix (refer to The Fragile 3LP by Nine Inch Nails; their The Downward Spiral on vinyl is amazing too by the way!) would i know for a fact bring out so much more clarity and depth and transparancy in the sound and layering and the drums and all… well: i guess we might never see that happen unfortunately… at least for me as i love my vinyl(s) and turntable and don’t buy any cds anymore as anything i love and cherish is released on vinyl too nowadays again…. unfortunately some acts don’t get the proper shit together and release a shit sounding disc — for example: A Place to Bury Strangers… the debut LP sounds like shite on Important Records… the remaster is a blast and a joy… money and time was tight for the initial release i know so i am not complaining, only: now that the remaster’s there… damn! this thing’s sweet… plus: it’s one of those very rare releases mastered way below the industry standard nowadays of 0dB so it’s rather mellow sounding, but when you crank it up it still retains it’s full high fidelty separation and transparancy and depth… fuck LOUD AT ANY VOLUME ;)

    end of vinyl freak-rant ;)

    in reply to: Cherub Rock WLP #29417


    maybe someone else can clear this up-
    but white label promos to me seem to be some kind of UK only thing…
    test presses always exist, white label or otherwise…
    as with Siamese Dream for example-
    HUT Recs used white label 2LPs to promo out-
    And they used cds too-
    Now- why all the hassle of white label promo LPs to send out?
    I do recall hearing once that with advance playing on the radio or something these white labels might be exempt from classification to the copyright agency, thus not costing the station any money to play on the air (as all and every played tracks do) so this might be an incentive to play a record on the air – hence the white label promotion…
    I’m just not quite sure on this issue/matter, I guess I have a file somewhere as I know for a fact I researched this once, can’t find it now – nor can I find any information on this matter conclusively on the web other than the DJ in a club-setting stuff… but that’s not what I’m referring to.
    I mean – these white labels are no review copies as it is a pain in the ass to figure out what it is and and and so a reviewer would get a nice cd to work with-
    Club DJs won’t play this from an LP so that doesn’t seem to be the target place/peeps for this promotion…
    Leaves radio open and I guess with the copyright thing/issue/matter it does make sense – now: is that a UK only rule of law?
    I’m curious if any other countries work with white label promos too? I guess we’ve never seen white label promotional copies from Virgin US or elsewhere, did we?
    Just being very curious – test presses are a safe and sound deal and story…
    But the white label promotional copies – I just don’t know…
    Maybe it was the fool proof way back in the nineties to advance promo an album out before the release to try to minimize leaking back then even – could also be a sound explanation; I mean The White Stripes promo copies for Elephant were vinyl only for example (not surprisingly so as it’s the release format of supreme choice for Jack White, but still…)— Then again: when advance promoting an album to the press why not use the full commercial release sleeve? To try and minimize the possibilty to sell it on? Dunno – posting a 2LP versus a cd?
    I gravite towards the point where I guess now the true white label promo copies were sent to radio.
    And maybe a couple of very high profile press peeps for advance listening for reviews.
    Maybe someone has more info on this matter of the white label promotional copies?
    Would be appreciated ;)

    in reply to: Cherub Rock WLP #29416


    you’re welcome ;)

    in reply to: Cherub Rock WLP #29414


    basically the pressing plant fabricates the pressing plates…
    they then do 20-25 real test pressings…(for a well known act with label etc, standard is arond 5 though)
    these are to be tested by the band/producer/label….
    hence the test/reaction sheet…
    sometimes the mock-up for the sleeve is ready at the same time…(or even the final production sleeves – which then would have been approved of at an earlier stage)
    these two things both need to be approved…
    so it makes total sense for these two items to be together with a test pressing…

    when agreed upon the test pressing’s quality production can start
    a couple of white labels are made for promotional use (almost only in the UK)
    these tend not to feature the artwork, but come in the standard hut bag

    the numbers at spfc come straight from hut or the pressing plant…
    i know dave took a long time to get those numbers, but these i believe are no estimation; when estimation spfc states so.
    i think they messed up some numbers though.
    the pressing quantity of the white labels is pretty much unknown.
    the pressing quantity of the test pressings is known and can be traced back to the production bills.

    now – white label promos are part of the final production run; most of the time that is as you wouldn’t go out on promotion with a faulty pressing, would you?that’s why these are produced only from the approved version of the press(ing plates/master).

    hope this helps ;)

    fun reading for vinyl freaks:

    in reply to: Zeitgeist Promo world #28294


    regarding the issue of the coolness of having a cd with your name on it…
    it all depends if you think the music sucks or not ;)
    i’ve got a couple in my name and to be honest, i could care less…

    now as for this one-
    i tend to gravitate towards the idea this particular promo might feature a slightly different master…
    i.e. less volume hence less saturation/compression \"flaws/clipping\", then again it’s square waves all over if i remember correctly… it’s kinda hard to judge as this thing doesn’t play on all but one cd player of the seven i own… so…
    for some strange reason however if and when i play zeitgeist it’s this version most of the times…

    ow and the numbering is tied to the recipient’s name and both to the specific watermark embedded in the data on the disc… a programme would be able to tell which number was leaked, a list of numbers will present the name, easy peasy, hence no leaking…;)

    in reply to: whats on your want list? #2449


    I want all 7" test pressings from the Siamese Dream era. And I want Tarantula/That’s the Way 7" test pressings, if they exist. Right now is perfect time for them to surface, no luck so far.

    I want all South African pressings. Only have like 2 now. And the Tristessa 7" test pressing, w/o signatures all over it. To me, that brings the value DOWN. lol, I know that sounds weird, but I’m a "stock condition" collector.

    I used to own the MCIS 3XLP WLP, and sold it in college for some money. :( Very big mistake there.[/quote:2lj7kpiv]

    just so you know-
    the Tristessa TPs were sold by the SubPop owners to a record store as a big pile of 7"s without sleeves.
    the guys at the store went thru it all by the catalogue etching in the run out groove.
    the ‘original’ TP must have had some kind of sleeve, but the one with the signatures is just a sleeve put on there by the store dudes that bought the pile from SubPop in the first place…or by the owner who didn’t EXACTLY have the TP signed, but the sleeve only—
    so that would make for a signed sleeve for a 7" containing the far more valuable Tristessa 7" TP… ;)

    And I’m with you on the Lull EP-
    There is no US 12" version for that release period- never was IMHO. (will stand corrected if one would turn up though ;) )
    I just can’t see why there would have been-
    Traditionally the UK is the vinyl market, subsequent singles/EPs weren’t released by Caroline on vinyl in the US… and there’s yet a single copy to pop up from the US 12" which makes it very hard to believe it exists…

    in reply to: Siamese Dream Collector’s Box: Help! #27019


    the seller’s story doesn’t seem that far off—
    i can clearly remember the box being quite expensive when first offered—-
    plus i know from a dealer i got mine from back in i guess it was 1996/7 he had several WITHOUT the cds and just bough the cds to fill in the blanks ;)
    so – errr
    i guess fakes could be real ones after all-
    i mean: it’s quite a hassle to fake this release; you’d be better off faking a MACHINA II cdr set…

    in reply to: Rhinoceros-Siva 7\" for sale on eBay #4151


    i still think these ARE rare-
    not as rare as the old disco mentioned
    but still-

    somehow a lot of these ended up in either The Netherlands or Germany…
    from seeing them pop up so often now i’d say there are at least 100-250 copies…
    i mean- this being a promo item there must be a rather substantial number of these stacked away, discarded, missing, whatever— you just don’t wanna know how many promo only items i have by hundreds of bands sent to me for review consideration which i have never got around to take a look at, put on ebay or whatever— so… pressing up vinyl is expensive and therefore… 100-250 if not more?

    the most rare promo vinyl i have is by Kylie – limited to 50… so i am not saying it’s impossible in the low figures… (strangely enough a couple did end up in Holland again as I had four of those at one time and made some money from them too I might add—)
    the SIYL 12\" was limited too- can’t remember how many copies were made though…
    so well – seeing the SIYL 12\" pop up far less frequently than the Siva/Rhinoceros 7\"— do the math?

    in reply to: Siamese Dream Collector’s Box: Help! #27004


    technically this box is not a bootleg.
    it’s what’s called a grey area release.
    as it doesn’t infringe copyrights per se (like interview discs).
    bootlegs do.
    then again – grey area releases ARE shady…
    not a lot of info to go by.
    there ARE boxes like these for other artists…
    i just don’t know if there might have been an over-production beyond 1.000 copies.
    but when this was released it was no bootleg for sure – you could just order this from any record store.

    in reply to: Q&A to the Smashing Pumpkins! #24543



    to clear things up-

    we @ SPMM will be sending out a small number of questions to the guys in the band.
    we will pick the questions and would love and appreciate all input.
    all in all in the final projected article which will be a collaborative SPMM-item (so not solely mine, mind you) it might turn out several, it might turn out none of our/your questions will / can be featured.
    or answered, so please bear with me in that process – thnx.

    the main focus is on the mayhem of news and releases and tour info and all – the current status so to speak – so keep that in mind – what do you wanna know most NOW at this moment in time about TSP NOW?
    think – current affairs vs lack of info or curious as to band input / statement – somwhere along those lines…

    hope this clear things up a little bit-
    i was very very busy when i asked arthur to post this here…
    so might have left out a few bits and pieces – but the above is what i’m looking for: like a long list from you guys from which i will then pick the best ones to propose to the team and then the team will pick the best ones to forward to BC and JC.

    thnx a lot.
    you rock – awesome, thnx!

    in reply to: Smashing Pumpkins Contract from 1998… Need Help #21364


    JCs was probably included in the other contracts.
    He isn’t here.
    This is a re-settlement contract for the smashing pumpkins.
    At that time JC wasn’t a member of tsp.
    If there was a to have been a re-settlement contract with JC this would have been a seperate contract.

    What is funny is this contract indeed includes-
    Asia Minor – written by Corgan
    the James Iha songs written for tsp, and ALL of them!
    the other James Iha songs

    This contract settles the royalities/mechanical rights issues for tsp.
    This is a re-settlement into a better deal for the bands – high advance up-front and lower fees for Chrysalis.
    Chrysalis is the publishing company for tsp and bc and ji….
    They manage all over the world track backs of royalties and mechanical rights issues for the band.
    Like for BC – i’m doing this from memory now –
    It’s Martha’s Music (or Faust Haus Music or whatever – samen company for him, different name) holds the (c) copyright (totally or shared with the rec. company) and Cinderfull/Cinderella Music (Chrysalis procures the royalities from that as the publishing company for the copyright holder… i guess he moved to another now, but whatever…

    You have the copyright and are entitled to royalities.
    That’s a bitch to manage and account.
    Therefore you have a company drawn up to hold the copyrights (they have value, it’s a nice tax move amongst other things).
    Therefore you have a company working for you to procure the royalities et al coming from you having the copyright – now that’s where Chrysalis steps into the picture- hence it’s quite logical to include the Warner Recs recorded tracks for Batman ánd to include the Ric Ocasek track as the copyrights lie with BC or his company or the band and the royalties and mechanical rights from these are not bound to a label or performer – even when another band plays a cover of a tsp or BC song Chrysalis will recoupe for tsp/bc.
    Same goes to the Taproot stuff BC wrote – unless there’s a special deal – he will get payed.
    Same goes for the Mechanical Animals album my Marilyn Manson – now that was a special case! Anyone can clearly hear BCs involvement in the arrangements and production – moving away from the distortion/noise/industrial heavy Trent Reznor produced Antichrist Superstar… BUT BCs not credited as such, but as an advisor or something, would need to dig up the actual album though. So; now he doesn’t get anything as there’s not a copyright to BC settled in these songs – might have been a nice move on BCs behalf to really only advise and help the band…
    See what happened next with Ric O? There he does claim full credits. And guess what. Nobody buys or gives a sh*t about Ric O so royalties will most likely be limited where could have made quite some money on the hits off of Mechanical Animals ;)))

    Does this make any sense at all?
    Questions – go ahead – it think i understand most of the contract…

    Also – i’ve seen others for HUT and Caroline and also for publishing deals – this looks genuine to me.


    in reply to: uh oh! more lawsuits or……. how to bake catbread #21081


    i’m writing this personally
    and thus NOT as a member of PMM

    the plaintiff complaint as reflected in the PDF is pretty fucking interesting.
    for one it states that TSP as per say somewhere in may 98 as BC, JI and DW, so excluding JC.
    the complaint NEVER mentions any new or renewed contract including JC.
    that’s pretty interesting/
    as TSP V2.0 is wholly credited to BC+JC.

    as for the plaintiff complaint
    Virgin seems to have reached agreement with BC.
    JI + DW or their lawyers know details of that agreement (it’s in the papers they do).
    BC has been payed royalties for the reached agreement distribution of songs.
    Plaintiffs claim they too not only would have to sign before releasing those digital files, they’d also be entitled to royalties.
    which seems to be quite fair on both counts…

    curious fact – plaintiffs go on to claim Virgin did not respond to their calls/pleas….
    now that’s curious – becuase Virgin indeed does need to know TSP = not only BC.
    as per the 1998 contract – TSP were BC, JI and DW.

    now TSP is BC + JC… i never understood if that case was settled…
    if you can that easily switch band names in a way from Zwan to TSP…..
    to be able to play old stuff et al….
    also an interesting matter!

    as for the gish box – no idea who will release that.
    for all i know TSP is free from contract and do whatever they want….
    With TSP legally still being the team that did it… so BC,JC,JI and DW.
    I guess, apart from approval as plantiffs seek in this case…
    JI and DW i think totally righfully claim a part in the contract and possible subsequent damages becasue Virgin seemed to have f_cked up in assuming reaching a deal with BC was enough….

    if you know any legal english these papers a great to read….
    i kinda get the feeling there’s much more contact between BC on one side and JI/Dw on the other….

    well – wait and see

    in reply to: No more commenting on #21125


    yes they are down and will stay down.
    i totally support this decision which was taken after a lot of due consideration.
    won’t and can’t go into details – but it’s a wise thing to I believe.

    in reply to: Congratulations to Sven – Official PMM Member! #17538


    will do a part 4 and maybe 5
    still researching into coat of eyes
    cool stuff coming up! ;)
    all the best-

    in reply to: Congratulations to Sven – Official PMM Member! #17513


    we decided to cut up the article (the full deal is around 6 times longer than this one) due to online publishing and stuff
    and i guess it works better this way
    still looking into some coat of eyes stuff and next week hope to address the drum machine demo sessions from around i fall…

    in reply to: Machina II, who owns the original vinyl anyway? #18748


    funny shit
    i once made that list

    ehm – yeah well – mel didnt get a copy…
    and uhm – yeah the q101 one ended up being auctioned off for charity

    leno holds up the sleeve only to matuzak’s copy.

    in reply to: Congratulations to Sven – Official PMM Member! #17500


    thnx guys—
    and well – the reference to SPfreaks is kinda logic isn’t it?
    you get the full deal witht the images and all and if it helps to point people towards this smashing site, all the better still! ;)

    well – i can take it Arthur – thnx for the props, thnx for the critique.
    alas – that line was long – still: it’s also about having to put in a lot of caveats when writing for the band’s site…
    will try to avoid those.
    will do my best to keep coming up with great titles ;)
    next week – a little bit on The Marked…
    already working on stuff on Siamese Dream > expect a lot of linking to SPfreaks in that article! ;)
    also working on a true collector’s piece – something like a top ten of collectables…
    feel free to chip in with hints for that one!!!!

    in reply to: Seems to be a Tristessa 12\" \"test press\" ? #18301


    well yeah but—

    test pressings are sometimes found ages after the release…
    it doesn’t mean these were destroyed.
    most likely these were not.
    how many do you make? less than ten usually.
    sent out to band, management, whatever to check.
    then what happens? well – any extras might hit the market.
    any others might not.
    with the Tristessa 7\"TP if it wasn’t for Jonathan and Bruce one strange day selling a stock pile of old 7\"s to a second hand record store these might have never hit the market….
    so – same goes for the I Am One 7\" TP (3 copies, 2 with BC, one in a private collection now)…

    most likely there ARE TPs for these Caroline releases out there still somewhere.
    there WERE TPs to start with.
    so there MIGHT be some still around, not many, but still.

    so there you go – you have a debut album, you’re Caroline, moneywise or whatever you have it pressed in Germany, the plant sends out several TPS to check, one is held for reference at the plant and let’s say four are sent out, so well – i’m not surprised these haven’t popped up yet. one at Caroline for reference, one with BC, maybe one at Butch Vig for checking and reference… so two unaccounted for.. or something, it’s not that far fetched i guess…

    as far as TPs goes I’m rather more surprised if and when these DO pop up.
    like this 12\" was is rather special in a way, but way way way overpriced in the auction…. still.

    try to find the plant that did the press and bug them about the possibility of still having a reference copy TP left…

    just today I met a guy who has reference copies of all TSP shows he engineered in Holland and Belgium in pre-FM quality which he’s gonna dig up for me as I bugged the hell out of him… So it’s out there somewhere and you can get it… same goes for the ‘Gish/Moon’ tape – research brought it here… I might have expected it to be lost, but it wasn’t.

    so same might apply to these Caroline TPs… i.e.: don’t assume these were destroyed (these VERY seldom are!!! there are TPS for The Smiths for example featuring totally different mixes and songs NOT destroyed! just to name one), it will be difficult, but until I stand corrected I say these can and will be found with enough effort and research. it’s just I don’t give and f* about TPs for my collection – otherwise I’d tried my best to find these – then again: collector’s and practical knowledge learns for any release a number of 5 TPs is standard, below has to do with tight budgets, above is normally a case of TPs being used as in-house reference for the bigger labels or passed along as advance non-WhiteLabel promos, as there are also genuine WhiteLabel promos but these have the approved final mix/master/cut.

    in reply to: Seems to be a Tristessa 12\" \"test press\" ? #18295


    there are TEST PRESSINGS for ALL AND ANY vinyl releases…. always…
    if these survive is another deal…
    however: i’m pretty sure there have to be some copies somewhere for the Gish LP.
    since the three I Am One 7\" TPs have been accounted for for example…
    Anyway – why on earth sell a TP for MCIS 3LP??? ;)

    in reply to: 19 October 2000 – Delabel FR live promo CDs #18243


    if i recall correctly there are songs missing from the setlist
    same songs missing as per tv broadcast
    now – the big question mark is:
    is this pre-TV or post-TV?
    pre-TV would have been the recording made between the SBD and a TV-mix console
    pre-TV could also have been the recording made after the TV-mix console and before the broadcast
    post-TV would have been the recording made from the broadcast
    since this is Delabel France, but follows the TV-broadcast, I don’t think it will be the first pre-TV option as that one would have bene complete, most likely.
    I’d say fair chance this is a TV-mixed pre-broadcast rip from the edited dvd or digital video/audio file for the broadcast.
    It’s kinda difficult to hear the difference between pre and post broadcast though anyway.
    Still have to hear the tracks, but I guess this could be a fair assesment as of now.

    in reply to: Congratulations to Sven – Official PMM Member! #17483


    1- glad to hear the counter went ballistic

    2- i will try to include the preliminary pieces in future articles….

    3- next piece will be on the topc of I Fall!!! expect a lot of traffic as I will link likle a maniac! ;)

    in reply to: Smashing Pumpkins looking for new media staff! #8578


    thnx for the best wishes

    we will do our best there.

    as with anyting online, there’s alway backlash, so what?
    the people not it or not doing it are always the first to point fingers.
    shit happens.
    i can take it.
    we can take it.
    been there, done that.
    and surely didn’t get the Hatephoria t-shirt.

    cut the hate
    cut the crap
    get the info out there
    that’s what i’m hired to do
    that’s what i will do
    TSP community building????
    now – THAT would take some effort
    but it can be done
    and we are the forerunners and all
    and can and will take the heat
    or \"heat\" for well – ehm – who are we talking about here venting their ‘anger’ or whatever or is it just jealoysy????

    so, wait and see what happens
    as for me
    heat ha!
    been there, done that and fucked her again…
    as in – I don’t give a s…t about backlash…..
    it happens and will happens
    so you know
    be prepared, be ready for it, do your utmost best and for the rest – oh well…. dunno…

    all my best

    in reply to: Seems to be a Tristessa 12\" \"test press\" ? #18281


    for the Tristessa 7: there were 5 TPs.
    I guess somewhere aroun that number for the 12\" too?

    in reply to: Smashing Pumpkins looking for new media staff! #8573


    just wait and see what we can do over there
    there’s some awesome stuff coming up
    we’re working hard on very cool things…
    so stay tuned

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