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11/09 -> i believe this date to be wrong, not misread, but wrong by the date stamp on the envellope[/quote:37gvx31i]
Then most likely the envelope should have said DEC 09 00, that makes way more sense. Right? The competition on Q101 radio was on 11/29, when they aired Untitled for the first time. After that the 3 winners were sent their prize. And all this makes the "Ashley-copy" of Untitled the oldest source for Untitled around, I guess. Cool.
[/quote:37gvx31i]I’d say this could be pretty right yes.
The NOV on the date stamp should have been DEC.The track was finished on 11/28 if i recall correctly, so this is very well possible.
http://www.spfreaks.com/default.aspx?page=COLLDETAILS&item=3561
i understand the date choice on this item.
i find it strange the date would/could be wrong.though… it HAS to be…
i was in Chicago when BC literally gave a cdr to the DJ of Q101 to play this song they had just finished.
from that cd and on that night 3 copies were given away.
it could be that these were mailed out on 29 nov. 2000.
and that there was an error in the stamp date machine somewhere.remember:
Untitled didn’t leak before the United Center penultimate performance.
if three winners were to have had this, it would for sure have leaked.i’d dare say the date of release is 001129 for the Q101 cdr of Untitled.[/quote:2wzyw5xa]
Let me try to help you, this is the timeframe for November 2000:11/09 Untitled send out by Q101
(check envelope date http://www.spfreaks.com/default.aspx?pa … &item=2441)
(but on that date Smashing Pumpkins was travelling from UK/IE to South Africa for 2 gigs!?)
11/17 NBC Studios, Burbank: Cash Car Star in Jay Leno show (where he showed a copy of the M2 vinyl)
11/28 WXRT Studios, Chicago: interview
11/28 Untitled copy scribbled Ashley
11/29 United Center, Chicago: gigWhen & where was Untitled recorded then? And do I misread the date on the Q101 envelope maybe?[/quote:2wzyw5xa]
11/09 -> i believe this date to be wrong, not misread, but wrong by the date stamp on the envellope
11/17 -> correct, but no mention of Untitled as of yet
11/28 -> according to BC finished the final recording and mix of Untitled, hence: the Ashley copy
11/29 -> bc brings a cdr copy to Q101 to be premiered and given away to 3 winners, live on the radio.Untitled was recorded in the week before the penultimed at UC and final performance at Metro.
That I know for sure.
It just can not be these 3 cdrs were mailed out earlier than 11/29.from my archives:
""Untitled" was recorded in Chicago in late November by leader Billy Corgan and the remaining original members of the group, guitarist James Iha and drummer Jimmy Chamberlin. Touring bassist Melissa Auf Der Maur, who replaced original bassist D’Arcy Wretzky, did not play on the song.
The swaying acoustic rock track debuted November 29 on Chicago alternative station Q101 (WKQX-FM) and later streamed on the station’s site exclusively for a month. Now more than 50 stations have played the melancholy swan song – which was not commercially available at the time – according to a spokesperson for the band.
Dave Richards, program director of Q101, said Corgan called him a few days before the Pumpkins’ November 29 show at Chicago’s United Center to discuss plans for a simulcast of that show.
"I went down to the studio, and he said, ‘I have something I want to play for you,’ " Richards said. "I had no idea they were working on new songs. He played it for me, and I asked if it was from one of the [album] sessions, and he said, ‘No, we just finished it yesterday.’ "
Corgan sent over a master of the song two days later, and Q101 debuted it on air just before the United Center show.
The track follows the patented loud-quiet dynamics that were the group’s calling card on such multiplatinum albums as Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness (1995) and the 1993 breakthrough Siamese Dream.
"When you’re young/ You can promise/ Anything that you wanted/ To be in love/ To feel love/ All around," Corgan sings in a hurried, joyful flow. As it fades out, "Untitled" crashes to earth with what is, in all likelihood, the final screaming Pumpkins guitar solo from Corgan.
The posting of the song on Q101’s Web site is in keeping with the band’s Web-centric final days. A sequel to last year’s MACHINA/the Machines of God was released in September to the Web only. Twenty-five copies of Machina II/Friends and Enemies of Modern Music were distributed to fans and friends, packaged as three 10-inch EPs and one double 12-inch LP along with instructions to distribute the songs free online. The tunes have surfaced on various Web sites, FTP servers and on Napster. "http://www.spfreaks.com/default.aspx?pa … &item=3562
Identify is missing for a simple reason.
the soundtrack was ready and there had to be a lead single.
imbruglia had to sing this, was decided.
i think she was on tour then and bc forwarded several versions (in different pitch) to her to record the vocals over.
this song didn’t get finished until the very last moment before the movie was premiered and the soundtrack got released.http://www.spfreaks.com/default.aspx?pa … &item=3561
i understand the date choice on this item.
i find it strange the date would/could be wrong.though… it HAS to be…
i was in Chicago when BC literally gave a cdr to the DJ of Q101 to play this song they had just finished.
from that cd and on that night 3 copies were given away.
it could be that these were mailed out on 29 nov. 2000.
and that there was an error in the stamp date machine somewhere.remember:
Untitled didn’t leak before the United Center penultimate performance.
if three winners were to have had this, it would for sure have leaked.i’d dare say the date of release is 001129 for the Q101 cdr of Untitled.
unlike the for example Masterdisk copy of Untitled this one seems to be a copy of the original one.
i.e.: not one that was the one Howie and co sent out to be checked and approved for reference by the band/producer/management…
it’s just not up to standards for a first grade Masterdisk effort.
then again: it’s very well possible someone along the line at Virgin or wherever made a copy and put the sleeve on a copier and this is that copy…@Arthur-
a lot of goodies there i’d love to check out.
the remixes for examples, some acetates to check the masters/mixes.as for the Stigmata cd.
i’ve thought about this and this is most likely the actual music in the film for the storyboard/scenes.
for the soundtrack release some of these were reworked to work as an album.
just check the cd with the dvd of the movie to hear the differences… i.e. fades, mastering levels, compression…
this one might be an actual cd connecting the scenes to the soundtrack music.
i’d say this is not per se an acetate but a disc to work with for the editors of the movie, making the cut.
the actual music will not have been cd sourced, rather full hi-def digital pro-tools ADAT i guess…that doesn’t necessarily mean the unnumbered copies aren’t promos.
look at the WLP for peel sessions, for example. i’ve seen plenty of copies of that one, but one can’t say that it isn’t a promotional item, right?[/quote:3i6skdfw]true that…
Sven, I think you hit the nail on the head with that review of the HMH show.
[/quote:1uvzoue8]thanks!
i don’t think the unnumbered mcis lp is on spfreaks.com.
i think the unnumbered mcis lp should have a separate entry on spfreaks.com. it’s a different pressing, with a different release date (somewhere in early ’98 if i’m not mistaken) and one of the six sides has a different matrix code.for the unnumbered peel sessions 10" i’m not sure. here it’s not a different pressing. a couple of copies just don’t have a number.
if we’re going to conclude that the unnumbered copies are promotional copies, then i’d give it a separate entry. if not, then i don’t know. one entry or two entries would be equally good, in my opinion. i guess two entries are easier for the people who want to add both to their spfreaks.com collection.[/quote:3c3oh1kk]as for MCIS >>>
agreed totally… -> that was a new pressing as they had to switch to new master ‘stamps’ (old ones worn out or something, no remastering or anything) and demand was so huge they went on with production, but didn’t number any longer.as for SF 10" >>>
there’s just a quite large bunch of unnumbered copies. back in the days i did not care for this release for some reason, but i’ve seen quite some. i guess it’s just the same pressing and there were sleeves left and pressed copies left so they went along.
for the collector i’d say the idea to list them seperately would be best as the one without the numbering is excpected to be more scarce than the numbered one. but still quite a lot (i.e.: not just promotional)for those of you who just can’t wait: 30s snippets via
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0064ZS … =dm_sp_alb
http://www.amazon.de/Siamese-Dream-Delu … 130&sr=8-2[/quote:ggyxbii7]
on SD (remastered album)…
> it’s very hard to judge this massive production by these snippets, but there’s been some tinkering with the low end reverb and compression; somehow the bass lines just stand out more as do some drum parts, but this needs to be evaluated with the full quality release.on the bonus disc for SD…
> Pissant: rough mix? sound like all amps to maximum (hear the room reverb!!) and just hitting it HARD…
> Siamese Dream: WOW! -> totally NOT what i expected… the sister track to HKK and Pissant for sure amazing rock sound, way dirty and loud
> STP: a groover somewhere between the Gish era and the SD era and still a groove riff BC uses in the new songs too… best rendition i guess judging from this we have of this song
> Frail and Bedazzled: a little bit slower than the PI one and a bit more Gish too, maybe in the psychedelic riff by James? that was turned into a spiky riff in the SD vein in the version on PI
> Luna: nice one with much too much reverb on the acoustic guitar and voice
> Quiet: early SD tour version as it’s still pretty close to the original and not that aggressive… from this session then? -> http://spfc.org/tours/date.html?tour_id=943
> Moleasskiss: another groover from the Pumpkins file; very Plume like… damn: if these didn’t make SD, but would have made it, it would have been such a different record… check the James vocal / harmony at the end, when they kick into the chorus
> Hello Kitty Kat: yet another massive groover, before the mix was ‘destroyed’ by BC (ref: PI liner notes); i guess i like this rocking version better than the overloaded wall of sound
> Today: superb extremely dirty distortion on both guitars, no lead parts for James (yet), a little bit slower too
> Never Let Me Down Again: nice one, same mix as on Rocket 7"/cds
> Apathy’s Last Kiss: there’s been a lot of effects applied to the final released mix as this sound way off balance on the James guitar and lacks the massive reverb
> Ache: nowhere near as yet of the final Silverfuck version but it’s all there; this goes to show where a good producer and relentless working to refine songs can lead you to
> U.S.A.: quite a suprise: groover and upbeat to, this could just aswell have been a post-jam to Silverfuck as Jackboot went on to be(come), a jammy thingy which seems to be able to go on for ages and ages and already i love the sound of it
> U.S.S.R.: untypical very choppy riffs and drum breaks; groovy to the bone, but where does this lead to in the complete version? this one too i, with U.S.A., i just cannot fathom how they did these groove song in massive rock guise in the same time frame and manage to come up with SD; very interesting stuff; the record easily could have been so much different, it appears
> Spaceboy: nice one
> Rocket: just amps to maximum and riff away; it’s so nice when this song sounds this dirty as i’ve always found the SD version too tidy for my taste; this is the perfect blend between the Gish era and the SD era and it sound big and LOUD
> Disarm: nice one
> Soma: nice one, but why? an hommage to the best song / riff / melody James has ever written maybe?for those of you who just can’t wait: 30s snippets via
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0064ZS … =dm_sp_alb
http://www.amazon.de/Siamese-Dream-Delu … 130&sr=8-2[/quote:23ffe821]
on Gish (remastered album)…
> even from this quality it sound as if they’ve made the sound a little bit more dirty; i.e.: mixed the distorted side of some guitar tracks to the foreground. it also seems to be a little bit wider in the stereo panning than the original or previous remaster.on the bonus disc for Gish…
> Starla: the main strumming riff seems to be much more up close and defined
> Siva: the drums and especially the bass are more pronounced
> Honeyspider: bass upped, clear definition between the various guitar parts (used to be kinda blurry wavy mesh)
> Hippy Trippy: basically just a Crush demo then? hmmm…. BC told the fan base before it was a totally different song, as did Joe Shanahan… sound quite ok to me on these 30 secs but hey… it’s Crush… and not an altogether new song…
> Snail: nice, warm and up close…
> Plume: the drums and bass sound much more defined, more definition in the different guitar riffs… massive rocksound and seems to be bigger in the stereo field
> Bury Me: still a little bit ‘muddy’ with a lot of treble on the cymbals and James guitar
> Daydream: loads of echo-o-o-o-o-o-o/reverb here…
> Tristessa: the ‘power chord’ riff seems to have gained bottom end here
> Girl Named Sandoz: this mix was already pretty good, the drums do sound more pronounced, especially the snare
> Jesus is the Sun: nice one
> Blue: finally the acoustic one from the studio in amazing quality?!
> Smiley: seems to have been tracked with the Blue version; same vibe and quality… nice one as the standard version to my taste at least as way too massive bass
> I Am One: as with Bury Me; i would have tried to cut down on the treble or tweak it warmer
> Seam: nice one
> La Dolly Vita: this mix already was amazingly warm and clear, can’t detect much difference now
> Pulseczar: Earphoria-version i guess
> Drown: nice onenow up to SD…
))
looking forward to these releases and to pump up the volume on the stereo (a much better one compared to the one i used back in the days which was good in and of itself no less…)…or you get yourself a vcr which plays PAL?
i’ve got me one that play NTSC just for my video tape collection of TSP…
or you send the tape over to Europe and ask one of us with the proper equipment (i don’t have that possibility unfortunately) to transfer the tape to DVD…I enjoy the new demo. My question at this point is as follows; On Geek and Tulips you can hear the vocals in way far off distance, but why? If they are supposed to be early instrumental demos shouldn’t the vox be absent? I’m not complaining, just curious.[/quote:3oyku114]
these are called ‘scratch demos’…
the band records in the room with the amps miked and everything.
bascially the band is on full blast then and BC sings a guide line vocal (maybe into a mic or not)…
so: the band lays down the track live and on the spot and BC just sings some vocal line along with it.
i do not believe he used a vocal mic so it must be some other mic(s) picking up his voice that’s why it’s so low in the mix; well: there IS no mix as this is just a quikc demo dump onto tape for reference later.did anyone notice the drum shuffle intro to Barb Wire and the guitars falling is almost identical to I Am One???[/quote:marypajl]yes. must be intentional.[/quote:marypajl]
my thoughts exactly… nice one though to mimick the drum lines and intro and then blow into a real SD-era riff…
test pressings are sometimes found ages after the release…
it doesn’t mean these were destroyed.
most likely these were not.
how many do you make? less than ten usually.
sent out to band, management, whatever to check.
then what happens? well – any extras might hit the market.
any others might not.
with the Tristessa 7"TP if it wasn’t for Jonathan and Bruce one strange day selling a stock pile of old 7"s to a second hand record store these might have never hit the market….
so – same goes for the I Am One 7" TP (3 copies, 2 with BC, one in a private collection now)…most likely there ARE TPs for these Caroline releases out there still somewhere.
there WERE TPs to start with.
so there MIGHT be some still around, not many, but still.so there you go – you have a debut album, you’re Caroline, moneywise or whatever you have it pressed in Germany, the plant sends out several TPS to check, one is held for reference at the plant and let’s say four are sent out, so well – i’m not surprised these haven’t popped up yet. one at Caroline for reference, one with BC, maybe one at Butch Vig for checking and reference… so two unaccounted for.. or something, it’s not that far fetched i guess…[/quote:1odhow5t]
Should be two, one for initial, one for remaster. None yet.
as far as TPs goes I’m rather more surprised if and when these DO pop up.
like this 12" was is rather special in a way, but way way way overpriced in the auction…. still.try to find the plant that did the press and bug them about the possibility of still having a reference copy TP left…
just today I met a guy who has reference copies of all TSP shows he engineered in Holland and Belgium in pre-FM quality which he’s gonna dig up for me as I bugged the hell out of him… So it’s out there somewhere and you can get it… same goes for the ‘Gish/Moon’ tape – research brought it here… I might have expected it to be lost, but it wasn’t.
so same might apply to these Caroline TPs… i.e.: don’t assume these were destroyed (these VERY seldom are!!! there are TPS for The Smiths for example featuring totally different mixes and songs NOT destroyed! just to name one), it will be difficult, but until I stand corrected I say these can and will be found with enough effort and research. it’s just I don’t give and f* about TPs for my collection – otherwise I’d tried my best to find these – then again: collector’s and practical knowledge learns for any release a number of 5 TPs is standard, below has to do with tight budgets, above is normally a case of TPs being used as in-house reference for the bigger labels or passed along as advance non-WhiteLabel promos, as there are also genuine WhiteLabel promos but these have the approved final mix/master/cut.[/quote:1odhow5t]
i do happen to give a f*, and am reasoning that these do not exist. until proven differently, as you, i will feel this way.[/quote:1odhow5t]
just trust me and read the web; before any vinyl goes to full press, there WILL be test pressings.
so yeah for Gish, some for the original master; new ones for the remaster.
for sure.did anyone notice the drum shuffle intro to Barb Wire and the guitars falling is almost identical to I Am One???
amazing how this very old one evolved into a full fledged SD-era song…
))so do you think that the one on the hut promo tape is the waterfront studios one, or do you believe that’s yet another version?[/quote:asnlnks2]
that’s the one always labelled to be from Waterfront, but according to BC is not.
they did try some versions at Waterfront but nothing came from these sessions.so do you think that the one on the hut promo tape is the waterfront studios one, or do you believe that’s yet another version?[/quote:39dzm4q5]
BC told me there is NO ‘Waterfront Studio’ version.
He has no clue as to how this got into the world.In 2000 BC did not have a copy of the version you mention.
We did give BC a CD-R with same-said take of Drown.
Later he told me: Yes! it was an alt. take; no: it was not from Waterfront St…..
Yep: the band themselves didn’t have that version.This is a new take.A different take, at least.
