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Yup, good find BleedingTheOrchid, however I cannot tell anything about it yet
I remember there was a Billboard reference also for this new single, but SPFC is pretty fast with all the info about the b-sides and the vinyl. Let’s see… We will know it in a few weeks, I’m getting curious also 
And yes, they did play Daydream during this tour, for example on July 2, 2007 – The Orange Peel Asheville. I’m working on the setlists of SPfreaks now, so I just found out. What a job, keeping track of all that setlists, I wished somebody could help me… Somebody solliciting here?
Talking about the Lull promo from Japan, it’s on the site:
http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=COLLDETAILS&item=1799
Thanks manillascissor!
Before I forget, somebody pointed out to me by email this weekend that the Taiwanese book edition has sometimes a Taiwan only sticker on front. As far as I know this book edition is imported from US (like everywhere) so I’m not going to give it a separate entry. Hope you can agree. Also I’m not that much of a collecting freak that I’m going to buy it. For your information, it’s available on eBay here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/SMASHING-PUMPKINS-Z … dZViewItem (don’t be mistaken, the promo cd mentioned is the actual Zeitgeist cd).
Other suppliers from Taiwan have this book edition also without the sticker.
i find it hard to believe some of you had never heard these songs before you read this thread. my face right now:
[/quote:1vaj8uji]
Don’t be too hard on them Cool As Ice Cream. Now that we are having this board since a few weeks, and slowly building our own community here, we recognize there are a few different types of fans/collectors of Smashing Pumpkins. The oldtimers with lots of knowledge that are around for a few years is 1 group, but there are also the younger fans of 15, 16 years old. They are discovering the older cd’s, RSPAA and other things as we speak. I believe Superlordspamulon and Tree_Spirit are amongst them (spank me when I’m wrong guys!), and we should give them a fair (and more then a fair) chance to pick up, discover and learn. And they do, I’m sure. And I’m more than willing to go that road with them.For example, there’s this Canadian guy Gianluca I have on msn since a few weeks, he is 16 years old if I’m right, he works with a Windows 98 pc, is not able to download things sometimes, working hard to get his own laptop, don’t want to talk on boards and so on, but 1 day I tell him something, the next day he knows more than me, because he’s a researcher pur sang. I have sometimes contact with a Chinese girl from Luxembourg, only on MySpace. She has almost no money to go to concerts, she has to work hard in the restaurant of her parents but she is 1 of the biggest SP fans I know. Another example, a guy (from the US) is only emailing me almost every week on my private email account with questions and stories. And I consider them also part of the SP community, though nobody knows about them, unless they start posting somewhere and make themselves known.
Talking about myself, I have been a cd collector only for many years, also have never been on a board since lately, so I learn almost every day also. I was never into that demo stuffs, being an official releases collector. Still I consider myself a hardcore fan & collector, that is around for a few years. Same like you I guess. But to cut a long story short, we are all 1 community, young and old, where and whether we post or not, whatever we know and don’t know. I consider all of them being my friend, and together we make SPfreaks, ThePumpkins.net, SPLRA, Siva, even Netphoria, and many other unique Smashing Pumpkins platforms. As webmasters, as builders, as posters, as teachers, as students. We all are driven by 1 force, our love for the music and people of the Smashing Pumpkins.
Rock on everybody!
hehe, davin isn’t the main webmaster of the spfc.[/quote:1wgyatjs]
Main spokesman better description? I mean I know Eric Agnew (and maybe others?) is/are behind him, but Davin is always the one emailing and so on, when he has timeAnd as I said on ThePumpkins.net, Netphoria is not 1 of my favourite places. I only go there when it’s absolutely unavoidable. With many other boards and places it’s avoidable. I consider it their bad luck to not having me post there instead of the other way around (there you go, I showed my tormented ego
as they already deleted a few of my posts… History long gone, but I decided not to go there anymore. Other teammembers do however, so in the end we don’t miss out that much).Thanks Cool As Ice Cream, it’s corrected to 1991/??/??, US, Gish-era and with description \"1 of the early shirts of the Smashing Pumpkins.\".
And the most expensive can be found here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000 … bleonard48
Never ever do this, you can get it for 40 bucks or even less. Like this one:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000 … ylucille01
Good luck toad32r!
Wow, you’re right! How is rspaa able to have this up w/o copyright infringement and all that?[/quote:28pleel2]
The Reel Time Sessions DAT tapes made in 1989 were given by Billy to somebody else if I’m right (I do have that info somewhere, but just being too lazy to search for it, and I’m busy doing some uploading of all the different TAFH boxes, as I got them scans today
). I’m also not sure if he "ordered" them to leak, but they did anyway. There’s not so much copyright infringement done when the actual track is never released officially. That’s why RSPAA was never taken down, they don’t have officially released tracks.Also, are you sure TW has a CD for Zeitgeist? I can’t find one…[/quote:37d5gs4r]
You’re right, it turned out it was the standard red release imported from the US if I remember well. I’ll withdraw it from the list in a second now. My contactperson in Taiwan however said they are awaiting the sales of Zeitgeist for a bit and then decide on releasing maybe a genuine Taiwan release, maybe in other colors (with bonustracks? he didn’t tell) also. But, I call that rumoured releases now. For the moment: NO TAIWAN. Snifff… another obi gone…
How did anyone know so much about these tapes? Did someone go to the LOC? Is this information available readily? How did all this come about?[/quote:3gnqlikw]
One of our contributors managed to work his way though to this info, without going to the LOC himself, that’s all I can say now. Some guy called Smiley on ThePumpkins.net (see link I provided) claims he can find this info also in the public domain, but it is very very hard, he admits. Anyhow, we are the first to have this info available in a userfriendly format.Davin, the main webmaster of SPFC send me this email about it:
"oh man Arthur that is awesome! good work!
the spfc categories don’t really allow for these sorts of tapes (i.e. they don’t really fall into the categories of "promo", "release" or "boot") so i’m extremely thankful for your site and efforts! until they leak, i’m glad to have the information compiled somewhere less cumbersome than the LOC database.
-Davin"
(<= me)Thanks Superlordspamulon! Some information from our friends at ThePumpkins.net’s board where people are discussing this matter:
huh? i always thought jackie blue was only on 1 official cd, but spfreaks here they list even 3! wow! this website surprises me almost every day… few more cd’s to look for
[/quote:1zywpipx]
Haha, you found 1 of those many "hidden" treasures of SPfreaks, the reason why we set this up. This Jackie Blue thing actually comes from my personal collection. 1 is from the commonly known cd 20 Explosions, the other 1 from a re-release that was deleted (if I’m right) and the last 1 is an Italian release that is hardly found, maybe even Billy Corgan and/or his legal people doesn’t know about it. Just guessing here of course, but I remember Billy Corgan saying he didn’t want the re-release of Jackie Blue. Maybe other people know a bit more about this story?By the way, don’t blame the other websites for missing out on things (I read your other post about Tarantula too somewhere on this forum), because on other things they know & publish so much more, which we don’t have or know. For example the tracks played at concerts in the Tour & Recording History, we are far from complete on that part. Every website has it’s own philosophy and/or database limits. So it’s always best to check all sources. But of course I’m glad you like this website, and the effort we (the SPfreaks team of 4 people, with lots of help from many people on the Hall Of Fame) take in maintaining and completing this.
Haha thanks guys, for being supportive and most of all being critical. Actually I learn the most from people like Smiley and Cool As Ice Cream, they keep me sharp and make me look into things once more. I really hope people like Smiley and Cool As Ice Cream are around to \"bug\" me with their opinions. I’m not afraid to make excuses when I made an obvious mistake. In this matter however, the more I think about it, the more fundamentalist I’m becoming.
Little funny sidenote for you people: I have a framed page of the Chicago Reader December 8, 2000 (page 15) at home. It is a full page Metro ad saying \"On behalf of Chicago and your fans worldwide thanks for an incredible thirteen years, Metro\". Think of it, Dec. 1987 – Dec. 2000 is EXACTLY 13 years…
Some extra info, Cool As Ice Cream.
Hope was (re-)recorded in Spring 1992 @ Soundworks Studio Chicago (The Smashing Pumpkins Recording Sessions Version 3.2 – August 2000 (compiled and maintained by: Jesse Miller), this info can be found on SPFC.org also), and that version was put on the 2000 promo Still Becoming Apart (and on the Pisces Iscariot + Friends tape). So it won’t get a direct 1986 link on the SPfreaks website anyway. And SPFC.org states about Hope: \"Confirmed as an old (1985-86) pre-TSP demo, based on its presence on Marked demo tape.\". Though I have not seen that tape around (it’s probably only rumoured?), based on this information I would make Hope a Marked tune that was adopted by the Pumpkins just like Spiteface and Sun (Death Of A Mind).
I Fall still stands out being a full Smashing Pumpkins song, recorded (1987), performed live (1988) & \"released\" (1989) by Smashing Pumpkins members alone, all flagged with the name Smashing Pumpkins. All this is confirmed by Billy Corgan himself, as we all know by now. In my opinion there is only 1 conclusion: technically speaking the Smashing Pumpkins exists since 1987.
i agree with points 4 and 5.
there’s no reason to conclude that this early song is the smashing pumpkins. saying the pumpkins started in 1987 is just a matter of taste, i guess. but if even billy/the band consider 1988 to be the birthyear of the smashing pumpkins, why should we disagree with that?
you can discuss this, but i think it’s pointless. hope was recorded in 1986, but officially released on still becoming apart, clearly a smashing pumpkins release. should we change it to 1986-2000, then?and i agree that this is no breaking news, and that no history is rewritten.[/quote:bhsm5j16]
Just a quick reply to this, because it’s a very interesting point of view. Which I still don’t agree, but that’s because I’m becoming a fundamentalist in this. Kidding, seriously now. I have just returned home from a long trip, so I’m tired and I wanna sleep. OK who cares. Here we go.1. There are 3 reasons to conclude this recorded song is part of the early history of the Smashing Pumpkins. I mentioned them before. For me (and not only me, several people agree on this, and it was not even me who brought this up, but I agreed immediately) the most important reason is: Billy puts it on a tape with the name Smashing Pumpkins on it. He wants it to be part of the early Pumpkins legacy, whatever he says about when the bandname came up. Technically the Smashing Pumpkins exist since December 1987, and I’m (almost) sure Billy would agree on that when being asked about it.
2. Hope will indeed get a 1986 recording date in our database, and 1986 will be visible in the Tour & Recording History (yes I let it being renamed to stop confusion in that section which was called Tour History first) when we get to that Hope track which was released in 2000. We just started in 1987/1988, working on 1989 and 1990 now. Rest till 2000 to follow after that, might take a while. But it’s indeed an interesting thing you bring up here Cool As Ice Cream, far more interesting then the Spiteface & Sun comparison Smiley brought up. Is it Smashing Pumpkins part I 1986-2000 then in my opinion? No. Hope was a Billy solo track (if I’m right) in a period that The Marked still existed, James Iha was not around yet and it was never played by the band live as far I know. Spank me hard when I’m wrong here, I do this by head now. For sure Billy had good creative reasons to put it on this promo CD that came with Machina, and indeed he made it part of the Pumpkins legacy by doing so. But it’s too far away from the early days to my humble opinion. I Fall is not however.
3. It is breaking news when some people have a clear opinion & want to start a discussion about it. And to create a bit of a fuzz, this is the way to play the game. Disagreeing doesn’t make it less breaking news. But that’s another discussion far from this one, so I leave it if you don’t mind.
Besides, tons of people don’t have this I Fall 1987 recording and Billy’s confessions about it on top of their mind, instead they get no listings about I Fall or even misinformation everywhere about "1988" when "Billy met James Iha". Which sux. Another reason to call it breaking news.
4. Which brings me to another, kinda philosophical, question. When was Smashing Pumpkins restarted? June 2005, when Billy announced he wants his dreams and band back? The day Jimmy Chamberlin said "I’m game Billy!"? 2006, when the Pumpkins website came back to live? When the rehearsels with the new bandmembers started, or when the recording sessions for Zeitgeist started? 22 May 2007 Paris, first time playing live?
My first shot would be: Smashing Pumpkins is a band concept, and a band needs more than 1 person to exist (that’s another reason why Hope can never make the startdate of the Pumpkins). So when Jimmy said yes to Billy the Pumpkins were reborn, in my opinion. Who knows when this was exactly, by the way? Probably already in 2005 somewhere? And are there people with other opinions?
I heard that this 3 track Tarantula single is available here:
http://oas2000.proxis.nl/gate/jabba.cor … =101488182
Good luck!
I agree with Smiley.[/quote:7vnj1gbi]
Interesting. What part? That we provide totally wrong information in this matter? Or that we shouldn’t call it Smashing Pumpkins in December 1987, not even technically? Please explain a bit further Cool As Ice Cream! I’m very curious.And this was my reply.
You have given it a good try to set up a critical story, Smiley! Cool! The only thing I could find however that is \"wrong information\" is that all the studio recordings are now in the Tour History section. This is for 2 reasons at the moment:-Our sources need to compare the older dates in a historical timeframe with the concerts, so we put the recording sessions there for the moment. Later on we will move this to an extra section Recording Sessions. For the moment it looks \"wrong\" yes, sorry for that.
-Our website is always in progress. Sometimes we forget to change headers, titles, columns, fields, dates etc. We have to keep track of a lot of information, compare tons of things, discuss it with our teammembers, answer emails and so on. Little mistakes can be made. Please forgive us.Your point 1. Correct, those 2 versions are circulating. I never denied that. This 3rd version of I Fall however is not wanted by Billy Corgan to circulate, so our source respects that. Nothing wrong here.
Your point 2. Just a matter of opinion. For example Kitty Kat exists in a Distorted version and a Non-Distorted version. Kitty Kat is not a new song indeed, but a remixed, a polished up, newly mastered or even an edited version is however called a \"new\" track. All collectors of new SP tracks and hardcore fans will agree with that. Nothing wrong here.
Your point 3. So you agree they haven’t been commercially released till now, as you state. Nothing wrong here. The \"concert\" thingy is already discussed above. Again, sorry for the confusion caused at the moment.
Your points 4&5. Might be true, yet it is news not known to many people. You cannot deny that. I see it from this point of view. Technically when Billy and James record a song called I Fall, a song without any historical background to other bands (Snake Train, The Marked, Hexen, & also no old bandmembers involved) and later on even perform that song under the name Smashing Pumpkins with the same people that recorded it, and put it (the Dec. ’87 recording) on a tape with the name Smashing Pumpkins on it, then it is a full Pumpkins song, agree? It cannot in any way be compared to Spiteface and Sun, which are indeed older tunes from The Marked, adopted and renewed by the early Pumpkins. Sorry, but I cannot follow you there when you make this comparison anyway.
To cut a kinda long story short: it might be said by Billy Corgan the Pumpkins started in 1988, because the name comes from that year. But TECHNICALLY and technically alone the Smashing Pumpkins exists since Dec. 1987. At least! No other website I know lists something about this year 1987. Or it must be in the dark alleys of it somewhere. It’s even worse, everywhere you will find lies like \"1988 Billy Corgan meets James Iha through a friend\" (see for example this Virgin press release that was send to me today: http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=IMGVIEW&item=5407 ). It’s just not true, they knew each other already in 1987! And I think SPfreaks has the full right to blow a little horn about this. And we provide NO wrong information in this matter. Even though you gave it good try.
Today I found a pretty nicely set up discussion about this \"rewritten SP history\" on ThePumpkins.net. Let me post it here also, for your information. The next post below was the reply I gave.
author=Smiley, date=2007-07-30
I’m not trying to be mean, but your information is completely wrong.
1. \"I Fall\" (demo and live) has been circulating for a couple of years now. Billy leaked the live recording himself, so it’s funny that you promised him you won’t leak the song. The home demo is available on this very site: http://www.thepumpkins.net/music/music_ … _tape.html
2. You say your recording of \"I Fall\" is a better/alternate recording, and that it’s found on the Gish/Moon Tape tape. However, that tape is precisely the source of \"I Fall\" that has been circulating for years. I suspect your \"better\" version is from the same tape, but better sound quality than whatever you previously had. That doesn’t mean it’s anything new.
3. Your site says: \"This tape includes 2 filler songs from the band’s early days which hadn’t been commercially released until now.\" …but these aren’t commercial releases. Your site also lists a \"concert\" at Billy’s dad’s house in 1987.
4. Billy stated years ago (Machina listening party, Dec. 1999) that \"I Fall\" was a demo that James and he recorded at his dad’s house in 1987 – yet you make it sound like groundbreaking news when you post about it.
5. Your site says: \"Those tracks are a (home-)studio version of \"I Fall\" (note the early date!) and a live version of \"Time Has Come Today\" from the Last Exit, Chicago gig on 1988/11/20. Technically we can say The Smashing Pumpkins exists since 1987 by the discovery of this tape.\" …okay – this argument is nonsense. Just look at the Marked songs on \"25 Songs O’ Pumpkins\" or \"Hope\" on Pisces+Friends/Still Becoming Apart. Billy also put pre-Marked songs on his Marked demo tapes. \"Jazzin’\" may or may not be a Starchildren song. The point is, just because it’s on a SP tape, that doesn’t mean it’s SP. Billy remembers so many details about the old days that I don’t see any reason to doubt him when he says the band started in 1988. I also believe him when he says \"I Fall\" was recorded in 1987. So this means:
1987 home demo of \"I Fall\" = not the pumpkins
1988 live performances of \"I Fall\" = the pumpkinsIt’s sort of like how Spiteface and Sun were both Marked songs originally, but the Pumpkins adopted them in 1988.
you’re not confusing it with the live recording from the avalon show, are you?[/quote:35tfb8or]
Certainly not. This is definately the studioversion! We could say it is version 3 of I Fall, as version 1 and 2 are the Avalon (thank you!-squeek) live version and the version you just linked. This 3rd version was given to Billy Corgan and he listened and said it’s indeed a better version of the one on the Gish/Moon tape. At the same time he said to 2 persons (including the "owner" of I Fall 3) that it was recorded in December 1987. Also he asked not to leak it. Which the "owner" is respecting of course. The main news here is actually that we have to set the startdate of the Pumpkins back to at least December 1987!shame that it won’t be leaked
i would love to hear it…[/quote:3c48ieg1]
you mean i fall? because if so, this track has been out for a while now.[/quote:3c48ieg1]
Somehow this is correct yes. The unpolished version from this recording date is out, however a much better, polished up version from that recording date that was listened at & date-wise approved by Billy Corgan is not out and will not be out either. I had the privilige to listen to it from it’s source.
